I notice from Chris's collection http://www.smle.army-cap-badges.talk...dised_Infantry that he shows one for the Welch and one for the SWB that he calls unofficial commission for the Welch and unofficial comm ACF CCF for the SWBords. Does that make these fakes or unofficial but genuine badges?

It would be great if someone can comment on this.

I know from other threads that the Welch is made from the Gaunt die but Alan in this thread http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=52768 calls it A copy of a badge that was authorised for production. and in the first post refers to the SWBords as a fake.

Where does that leave the Welsh and SWBords badges as I have both (I have two of the Welch) and one day might wish to sell them. If Chris says they are unofficial but does not call them fakes (as he has with the By Dand Gordons), but Alan does call them copies for the Welch or fake for the SWBords, which makes them not allowed to be sold on this forum.

Obviously I could ebay them and they would both sell, but I would not wish to sell them as unofficial but genuine if they are indeed fakes/copies.

It is with good reason that Chris Marsh's book entitles the cadets chapter as a 'confusion of cadets'.

As I understand it the badges shown are 'not authorised for production' - namely not worn by the Regular or TA Battalions during their existence.

I have not seen any evidence to suggest that any CCF or ACF had them made in the years after the regts had adopted the Welsh Bde/RRW cap badge but precedents exist elsewhere of ACFs continuing to wear pre '58 badges well into the 1990s so I would not rule it out. For example I know for a fact that the Y&L and the Cameronians badges were worn by the ACF and the Tyneside Scottish is still in use by cadets today.

If anyone does have any evidence for the SWB and the Welch badges wear by cadets then I would be very interested.

Thank you for answering my question Alan.

Unfortunately the production of these a/a badges does seem rather muddled and hard facts are few and far between. The fact that the Welsh badge is made form a Gaunt die but not maker marked does rather suggest that it was either not made by the Company but by someone who had come into the possession of a genuine die or that, as has been suggested elsewhere, they were made by Gaunts but for whatever reason they chose to conceal their involvement.

The reason that I used the term 'copy' for the Welsh regt but 'fake' for the SWB is that the Welsh Ret badge was produced for the MOD whilst the SWB badge was not made in a/a prior to the regts' merger. If they were made for cadets then they could legitimately be regarded as genuine cadet badges in the same way as other school CCF badges are considered genuine.

Alan,

Thank you for expanding on your earlier reply.

I did not know that no AA swb badges were officially issued. I thought there was at least one version issued.

You have got me thinking now! I will check Chris Marsh's book when I get home.

Alan

Chris shows a Dowler marked badge from the early 1960s so I stand corrected and they were authorised for the TA. The 1st Bn wore the SWB badge in 1959 and then changed to the Welsh bde badge soon after.

Hi
Christs College Brecon CCF were SWB badged 1947 until 1969 then RRW
They may have worn AA.
Paul

Hi Alan,

I'm away from home at the mo so all this by memory but yes, SWB was authorised and genuine ones are by Dowler. They are scarce though. The images shown of the SWB and Welch are knock offs made by Gaunt and sold in the 1980's.

The rule of thumb with cadet forces is that, at least during the AA era, ACF and CCF were affiliated to their local TA battalion and wore the same badge the TA battalion wore which was not always the same badge that the regular battalion wore. Remember, while many regular battalions wore the Brigade badge some TA battalions were 'relegated' to the Regiment's badge hence such arguments over that such and such a AA badge is fake because the regiment wore the Brigade badge at the time forgetting that the TA battalion did not.

The badge worn by the CCF/ACF units could and did change over time. However, CCF at least could have their own badge if OK'ed by (if I remember) the controlling ACF authorities of the day and not by the Army Dress Committee.

In modern day one school has recently recieved official authorisation from the Army Dress Committee to wear a badge of their own design in 'New Metal'. I found no info of ADC authorising a design for ACF/CCF during the A/A era although while in the National Archives researching my book I came across lists of school CCF showing the TA battalions they were affiliated to and the badges they wore be it the school badge or the TA battalion badge.

These lists was from the 1960's and for the North West of England and may also have been for the North East of England.

Regards,

Chris

Thanks for clearing this up guys.

Hi Alan,

With regards to the East Yorks anodised aluminium cap badge, does the real badge normally have a blank slider?
I recently found one which is gold anodised with a blank slider and I’m unsure if it’s genuine.

Cheers

Stew

Stew

It was a design that was not authorised for production. The regiment merged in 1958 before an a/a badge was issued to them. Both the Regular and TA Bns wore the new badge. If you have seen a die struck badge with a blank slider then it's likely to be a repro.

Alan

Good post.

Wow, I didn’t know that

The majority of pre 1958 infantry cap badges were sealed for the TA battalions in the 1960s who continued to wear the old pattern after the Regular Battalions had adopted the Brigade badges. Where the TA Bns had adopted a bespoke TA design, such as Queen's Surreys, Yorkshires, Bedfordshire, Suffolks then the badges were not required.

There were some badges, such as the Cameronians and York and Lancaster, that were worn by cadets long after 1968 well into the 1980's.