BC Regiment tunic
 

There is a significant issue with this offering. The sum of the parts does not add up.
In addition there are some issues with the uniform itself. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/WW2-BC-Regime...item2c90715a0d

This is the second time around on EBay for this BD. It did not make reserve last time at bat.

And well it shouldn't in the current context. The BC Regiment did not serve in Italy. That was the BC Dragoons. Linking the documentation to this tunic is a bit of a sharp practice.
There are also a couple of issues with the uniform as well.

...I'd say the rank chevrons might be problematic.......

Jo

I see he also has the 8threcce tunic on again. Starting at $1 but has a reserve. Cheers Brian

If one has three or four nicely patched uniforms from different regiments all sewn with a sewing machine, and if the stitch count (pitch) for all four appears to be the same 12 stitches per inch based on a count of the stitching up the sides of the div. patches, and if the thread appears pristine in every case, despite the ages of the uniforms and the variety of thread colours, and if all the div. patches look remarkably fresh themselves, one might want to consider black-lights, burn testing and peeking under the patches to check corresponding fading... just sayin'.

A side question for Bill A.: if an officer was being de-mobbed overseas in 1945 and given a new going-home battledress, would he have been given all new patches for same at the same time, or would he have needed to salvage the 'CANADA' and/or shoulder titles from his old uniform?

Interesting observations David. It is odd that these were all machine sewn to begin with. Most of the time, it was up to the individual soldier to have the insignia put up.
The uniform is also missing the service chevrons. It has a lanyard that was for officers. The troopers and jnr ranks were to wear a plain black lanyard.
In reference to the question about the repatriation process, the following was the established practice. Those proceeding through the repatriation depots would be issued a new battle dress and a complete issue of insignia, ordnance pattern. (Ordnance pattern was the printed badges which were not popular with soldiers.) By this point in the war, insignia once issued was considered personal property. If a tunic was to be written off, the officer or other rank could remove any and all insignia for future use or as souvenirs. Being the printed badges were held in some disdane, it was not uncommon for personnel to put up embroidered insignia. The embroidered badges were more durable and in most cases had a better appearance than the printed ones. It was also possible to purchase embroidered insignia offered on the market. Many soldiers purchased these to put up on their new tunics.
This is part of the problem for collectors. The exceptions to the rules are so common that it is usually argued that, despite contradictory evidence, this is what the fellow wore. It allows a great deal of latitude for the unscrupulous to put together a tunic. They then call it a crow, because it looks like the crows on the hydro line.

Question for Bill....is it possible the the badges were sewn by a civilain tailor OR a very nice person of the female persuasion in Holland post May 1945.....????
I am also leery of anything and I mean anything coming from vespalambretta.......too many "good" items" from the same seller...


Jo

Jo:

My point about the pitch setting is that it would need to be the same very nice tailor or female persuasion person in each case, if the count and stitch length is the same. Or at least the tailors of Holland were passing around the same sewing machine and no one ever said, "Dummkopf, this is not a trouser leg!" and changed to 9, 11 or 13 per inch instead :D

[PS: this will be more than you ever wanted to know about setting the stitch count on a sewing machine.]

David's point is important. Observing the larger pattern of offerings rather than relying on the analysis of one particular item is one of those "the sum of the parts" type questions. A vendor offering the good with the bad and the ugly is a great way to "seed" the auctions and sell questionable material. If one steps back and has a look at the overall pattern, it is possible to draw some conclusions about the nature of the offering in a larger context.
Jo, To specifically answer your question, insignia was often taken to unit tailors, the RCOC tailor or civilian tailors, or girlfriends and wives. But the badges should show different "tailoring" skills and techniques. As David says, that one sewing machine in Holland must have been passed around a lot.
Still the biggest red flag with this is the attempt to link a BCR tunic to a BCD fellow. How are these connected?
One final observation. The beret is Brit issue, which may possibly have been issued to a Canadian unit. The supply policy established by the Canadian govt and fairly strictly enforced in the UK / NW Europe was that the Canadian army would use Canadian made uniforms, including headdress. It was more likely that the issue of Brit uniforms would be in the Italian theatre, as the line of supply was Brit.

battledress blouse
 

hi bill, I like the bit at the bottom of the ebay ad, seller states "if you are after a particular unit that you don't see listed contact me as I have many others" in other words I will get my sewing machine out and make one to your specifications. but it will cost you. regards john

David and Bill are absolutely right,
All of the stitching style is the same and very neat and calculated. I looked at some of my WWII period worn shoulder flashes as well as the original battle dress. What I noticed is almost all have different stitching, space between stiches , color thread and done at speed as you would expect from a busy tailor shop or army RCOC shop. Many of the stitching runs off the flash actually where the operator of the sewing machine had to change direction or doubles back in areas. Then a lot were hand sewn by the soldier or lady friend with very different out comes in terms of neatness.
The items listed by a "certain" seller have always made me Leary, this last batch even more so, to many inconsistencies, odd accompanying documents and they just don't have the Ora about them that they have been there even if being there means worn on the ship home and left in the closet for 70 years.

I can add a little bit of information to this topic.

The BD and beret were originally purchased by Wayne Cline (Marway) from the family.
Wayne sold it to a collector in Calgary (Vic T), who sold it to me.
I sold it to a collector in Edmonton who later sold it to the dealer who is now listing it on ebay.

The hand-written notes outlining the history are Wayne's.
He jotted down what he was told; evidently something was mixed up regarding the Italy reference as the veteran was deceased when he obtained it.

It was I who had Arnie Kay do the research and we're both convinced that we nailed the right fellow...BC Reg't Cpl., an amputee and originally from Wpg.
And no Italy service.

In one of two photos that accompanied the group, and the one shown on ebay, he is wearing a 2 CAR cap badge.
I never kept a copy of the service files, but did keep some photos & notes and found the following...

Corporal William Cheston Smith was a tradesman from Winnipeg who enlisted in the 2nd Canadian Pioneer Battalion on 29 May, 1940.

On 5 February 1944 he was taken on strength to the 2nd Armoured Car Regiment and on 22 November 1944 was transferred to 28 CAR (BCR).

Smith was wounded in Germany 5 days after war’s end, when he and his driver returned to their tank after having a few celebratory drinks.
The driver entered the tank first & when Smith was about to enter a bomb exploded, killing the driver and wounding Smith.
He managed to make his way to help and was admitted to hospital, but lost his arm.
A woman had been seen running away from the scene of the explosion, presumably a saboteur, however the official enquiry could not determine the cause and so it was ruled unknown.

Smith was awarded the CVSM & Clasp, France & Germany Star, Defence Medal and War Medal 1939-45 and became an active member of The War Amps of Canada.

Below is a photo of the insignia....it appears that the Div. patch is machine sewn and the flash is hand sewn.

At any rate, I don't have a dog in the fight as it's no longer mine. And I have no affiliation, nor do I ever want any affiliation with the current seller.
But I do trust Wayne Cline implicitly.

I hope this helps the discussion.

Roy

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/...A56/BCR-04.jpg

Thanks Roy. Good additional information. Marway Militaria is one of the most upstanding and ethical dealers around. There is no problem with their reputation.
There is still some question about the documentation. The note from Arnie id's the soldier but not the regiment and the same with the discharge paper. The photo is not very helpful; the badges on the tunic can not be seen and the cap badge is nearly impossible to make out. It appears the vendor has interpreted something wrong and presented it with incorrect attribution.
The "chain of custody" to use a legal term, would have certainly assisted in the analysis of this tunic. I am curious as to why vendors don't want to name the custodial history of the artifacts (when known). Some auction houses derive mileage from listing material as being from "the collection of X". Not casting any aspersions on Wayne, the information he has recorded is the information the family passed on. Is there any concrete connection between the tunic and the family provenance? There was no service number or name inked in the tunic?
Your final statement says a lot. Thank-you.

Hi Bill,
Vic told me that the Italy reference was a red herring at the time I purchased it.
I called Wayne to see if he had more information...he remembered the grouping but had acquired it so long ago he couldn't remember any additional details beyond what he had originally jotted down.

So I enlisted Arnie to find a Cpl. William C. Smith, BC Regiment, from Winnipeg and an amputee. In one of the photos that came with the group, Smith appears to be wearing a 2nd Armoured Car Regiment (Manitoba) cap badge so I hoped whatever Arnie found would confirm that.

Arnie found only one man and he fit the description perfectly.
The vendor is showing only the discharge certificate but the complete service file lists Smith's attachment to both the 2nd Armoured Car Regiment and the BC Regiment.

Below is a scan that better shows the cap badge.
There was also an early enlistment photo taken in Wpg. and an extra BC Reg't lanyard....I assume the vendor has them.

The vendor may not have the knowledge to properly present the relevant documentation.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/.../WCSmith-C.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/.../WCSmith-A.jpg