Spurious Gaunt London Plates on RND badges
 

There appears to be a recent influx of dodgy badges to the market with "Suspect" "J.R.GAUNT LONDON" makers plates! Mostly on eBay but a reputable dealer and Forum member has been "Hood Winked" no pun intended, as they have recently listed three RND badges (now removed from sale), all of which appear to sporting wonky plates?

There was the Lonsdales that Simon (Longshanks) started a thread on and now these!

I will add a guide to this thread later today!

Andy

The issue is that a Gaunt plate marked Red Cross badge is £3. Remove an original plate and add it to a good fake RND badge and it is saleable at 10 x the cost of the badge and plate.

Alan,
a very valid point but removing the plates which are often bedded in braze would probably give even the most novice of novices some clue to tampering? But one to watch out for!

Andy

Plated Royal Naval Division Badges
 

If any member is pondering over purchasing a Plated (plate attached and not the coating) RND, then a visit to Paddy's RND album may save you some embarrassment and a considerable amount of cash too!

Andy

Funny you should bring that up Alan. I bought a good Highlanders badge a few years ago that has the location of the plate, but it looks removed, or it may have fell off. Not sure. Maybe it was added to a RND etc to get the value you say.

I mean a 10 pound Scots badge to get a 100 pound RND.

Here's the badge

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=90686

Simon.

Simon,
???? the plate is still there, just rubbed smooth! Removing a plate would IMO wreck it!

Andy

Nah Andy. The edge you see at the bottom is raised. The plate is actually gone. You need to see it from an angle. But it's framed now so I can't post one for you.

I think it may have fell off, or maybe prized off.

Simon.

Simon,
I disagree, it looks as though it is still there, but you have the badge! :rolleyes: They are often polished smooth, as I believe the War Office stopped makers marking their badges, and it was probably easier to polish them smooth than to remove those already fitted?

The original plates are paper thin, quite often not neatly cut as are the Fake ones! The lettering is often very lightly struck, whereas on the copies it is often very deep. The genuine plates measure 8mm (wide) 3-4mm (high), the Fakes are often larger. The genuine plates have at least two layouts to the Font, on one the J.R.GAUNT and LONDON the same length and sit neatly above each other on the other style the LONDON is again below but slightly narrower and sits justified. On the Fake plates, which are often much thicker, the LONDON is wider than the J.R.GAUNT set above it!

Some genuine examples, the RE has been cleaned to aid photography!

Andy

A fake plate on a fake CHICKEN, next to a Genuine plate on a Dragon. Even from the images you can see the wonky plates are larger and thicker!

Very good observations Andy and I note that the dealer has now removed the items.

Its good to know that reputable dealers value their customers and their reputation and listen to comments made by others (as opposed to those who are in a constant state of denial).

Ivan

Back on Thread
 

Here are the badges that were removed from sale, provided by Lew Shotton for the use of Forum members, Many thanks! The detail on the front of the badges is clearly different to that on the originals but the effort gone in to "Forging" these plates is a worry and members should consider the pointers posted above on encountering a "Plated" badge!

Andy

Andy,
Not wishing to hijack your thread (honest Guv).

Would it be worthwhile people sending pictures of their real and fake tablets a bit like the 'cast badge' thread?

Am happy to contribute with what I have.

Ivan

Ivan,
ANYTHING or any information which prevents collectors from spending their "Hard Earned" on fakes, forgeries, reproductions or pure fantasy items can only be of benefit!

Andy

Sorry for the quality, they are quite old pictures.......

A duffer!

Here is my Hertfordshire Regiment one.

I have no problems with it.

I will get a close up tomorrow.......

Andy

A couple of good uns.

I think the key is to be cautious of thick plates with nice neat/rectangular edges!


Andy

I agree, real ones seem to be irregular in shape.

Any idea where or who these fake ones are coming from?

I can't believe it's taken this long for it to become apparent that Gaunt plates have been faked.

It hasn't. Its just that someone saw some on a dealers website, notified the dealer and alerted the forum that some where currently doing the rounds.

Nothing wrong with just reminding people every now and then of what fakes are out there.

Currently? More like always, not so much on respectable dealers sites but certainly on ebay.

When they appear in dribs and drabs that's one thing but when a few turn up fairly close together, maybe we should be suspicious that someone has either released some old ones onto the market or a new batch has been made and released.

I agree about ebay which ALWAYS should be treated with caution but it doesn't hurt to remind people does it?

Ivan

A close up of the Hertfordshire plus a Notts & Derby.

Hi All
First of all may I congratulate all who have posted in this thread.
A fantastic piece of work for which will definitely help a novice like me.

Now would I be correct in saying this is one of those NOT CORRECT PLATE badges.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAP-BADGES...item3f3c0791f8

I have not got the eye most of you have but at the moment I think its wrong.
BUT I am sure I can only make mistakes until I can get my eye in (so to speak)

Thanks All
Paul

Paul,

As someone who knows as much as you about these plates and having read whats gone before I think interpret the shallow lettering to indicate a good plate despite the angles corners.

The badge is Victorian/Edwardian with its 2 loops, but £55!!!

He's having a laugh at that price.

regards

The KLR badge shown in the link is genuine and so is the plate! The badge is also worth what the seller is asking and despite having lugs it is a rather scarce Pagri badge :D! (I wonder how long it is now until it is sold!!) :D

Andy

There is information on the badge shown in the link above here http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ht=kings+loops

KLR has the detail but it is a regimentally approved and procured badge used by the Regular bns of the King's Regt in lieu of the official horse up to 1926. It's design is the one that the post 1926 sealed pattern design was based on. As it was a regtl purchase rather than a WD official order, Gaunt added the plates; presumably to encourage future orders with them.

As such it was worn on the pagri as a picture my FSH album shows. It was also worn on other headgear.

Here are two more examples, despite being poorly struck and in the case of the first double struck. The Warwicks Vols and a Genuine Hood Bn which despite looking so bright is right! Note how thin these plates are, you'd have a devil of a job prizing one off without causing noticeable damage! Both badges by the way came from eBay ;)!

Andy

Worn on the cap and helmet. Definitely before 1903 but I'm still not sure when it was introduced (the collar badges of this type date to 1896). there are quite a number of different strikes and they also appear with sliders - which don't need plaques as the maker is on the slider. Still fairly common but yes, the price has rocketed recently.

I should have said that it is known as the "foreign service badge" - ie worn by the 1st and 2nd Bns when they were in India or other stations, though they have appeared in photographs taken in the UK.

I had forgotten that early thread cited by Nozzer, I have done a bit more research now but mostly concerning details - I'm still searching for the date of introduction !!!

Mine cost £10 which is a fair price. Similair Kings variants go for that price and even adding a premium for the Regualr bn bespoke design I could not ask £55 and keep a straight face. About £20 would be the upper limit. There is a 'bubble' growing here and soon enough any specialist collector will have one at which point the price must drop as run of the mill collectors will buy one type of Kings badge for £6 and stick to one! the same is happening with 1916 economy prices.

I only got one recently after a long time of looking and even that has a cut down shank. It's thanks to this forum and in the case of this badge to Peter and Julian that most of us were aware that this is not a makers variation of the post 1926 badge but a genuine earlier 'unapproved' pattern.

Unfortunately not only collectors are members but dealers too.

Pre-forum days you'd probably have picked this one up for a fiver

Andy (and others) :D
I've been away so have missed this thread up until now, which I have found very interesting and useful... A question about the Gaunt tablets! I have a number of die cast Gaunt bronze OSD badges with the MM stamped into the badge, so why would they suddenly use a tablet on a die cast badge? I can understand them using a tablet on a die struck badge. but not die cast. Can you please explain that? :confused:
Thanks in advance. Cheers,
Alex

Two years on and I've just seen this query.
you presumably mean 'die struck' in your second line.
This simplifies the answer; stamping a maker's mark into fairly solid cast bronze would not disfigure the badge. If you did the same on a thin die struck badge it would probably come through to the front of the badge. - hence attaching a tablet instead !
Incidentally, Firmin OSD badges have what looks like a raised tablet on the back as part of the casting - it was then stamped with the maker's name.

fakes
 

having spent many years with different types of brazing and trying to remove the stuff, its a real pain to completely remove with out damaging the plate or the subject especially when one part has a complex shape both items had to pickled, refluxed and re-brazed, unless the metal is thick there is always some distortion . I would guess that the original Gaunt tablet would be quite thin as its easier to heat both the plate and the badge if they are similar thicknesses metal especial to get it looking neat.
Any one who has tried to fit a slider to a badge knows its not easy to get it looking right let a lone fit a tablet in the correct place. It can be done though but I certainly wouldn't waste time on it.

Cheers

makers plates.
 

For what its worth app two years ago a dealer at the Leeds Arms and Armour fair at Pudsey had a full dish of Gaunt oblong makers plates for sale at five pounds each. I have never seen them on sale since or any where else. marybrads.

I see no label!
 

Having read this thread and looked at the RND gallery I think you may be about to spoil my day. My recently acquired Nelson RND badge has no Gaunt label and the lugs are at 90 degrees to those shown on Paddy's page.

Assuming the absence of a Gaunt label is not the kiss of death, I also notice that the scroll with "Nelson" in it on my badge has a smooth background and Paddy's appears to have a raised patterned background. Mine also has a few rubbed spots, which I hope are the results of some over zealous matelot rather than some dodgy faker - I choose my spelling carefully.

What does anyone think of this item?

Best

Andrew

Bit late I know but it’s a fake Andrew. Not having a Gaunt plate isn’t a kiss of death though. Your badge is from the fake die sadly.

This is a very helpful thread. I do not have any badges with these plates, but have seen them form time to time and now know what to look for - THANK YOU!!!!

Terry

FAKE Hood RND with FAKE Gaunt tablet on eBay
 

Fair warning to members and prospective buyers this current eBay listing is a fake with a fake Gaunt plate https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hood-Batt...EAAOSwcLleZrN3

I have contacted the seller regarding this and explained in depth with comparison photos the reasons. The seller tells me the badge itself was from the recent Dix Noonan and Webb auction and catalogued by Dixon Pickup hence I feel he reticence to contact the auction house to return it.

In fairness to the seller he has removed the word ‘original’ from the listing’s title and added to the description that he’s revived an email saying it’s a good copy.

To be clear, this is a fake. There is no doubt.

Whilst many of the badges from the recent DNW sale were genuine and fairly scarce items I did notice some other fakes within the lots. As it seems these are hitting the market now my advice as always would be to buy each badge on its merits rather than who the seller is or which auction house it came from.