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-   -   1st Wellington battalion cap badge, 7th Wellington West Coast collars. (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76103)

pukman 23-11-19 12:24 AM

1st Wellington battalion cap badge, 7th Wellington West Coast collars.
 
4 Attachment(s)
A couple of photos from my collection of soldiers wearing a 1st Wellington battalion cap badge, and 7th Wellington West Coast collars in combination.


Arthur Pike 10/495, at Alexandria, Egypt in November 1915, and a Sergeant called ''Vic'' possibly in the United Kingdom.

leigh kitchen 23-11-19 09:04 AM

Looks like yer man Pike, albeit no wound stripe shown in the photo despite his now being a corporal, although I suppose he could've been a corporal and "busted" back to private before his wounding:

First Name:
A
Surname:
Pike
Report Date:
13/06/1915
Information:
Listed as "Wounded" on the Casualty List issued by the War Office from the 13th June 1915.
Further Information:
This man was entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under the Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being met by their naming in this list.
Rank:
Private
Service Number:
495
Duty Location:
Mediterranean
Service:
New Zealand Expeditionary Force
Primary Unit:
New Zealand Expeditionary Force
Secondary Unit:
Wellington Battalion
Archive Reference:
DT14061915
Collection:
British Army daily reports (missing, dead, wounded & POWs) WWI

pukman 23-11-19 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen (Post 493033)
Looks like yer man Pike, albeit no wound stripe shown in the photo despite his now being a corporal, although I suppose he could've been a corporal and "busted" back to private before his wounding:

First Name:
A
Surname:
Pike
Report Date:
13/06/1915
Information:
Listed as "Wounded" on the Casualty List issued by the War Office from the 13th June 1915.
Further Information:
This man was entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under the Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being met by their naming in this list.
Rank:
Private
Service Number:
495
Duty Location:
Mediterranean
Service:
New Zealand Expeditionary Force
Primary Unit:
New Zealand Expeditionary Force
Secondary Unit:
Wellington Battalion
Archive Reference:
DT14061915
Collection:
British Army daily reports (missing, dead, wounded & POWs) WWI


''Wound stripes. In August 1916 Army orders approved a distinction to be worn by all officers and soldiers who had been declared wounded in casualty lists in any of the campaigns since August 1914''


This photo predates the wearing of wound stripes being dated November 1915.

leigh kitchen 23-11-19 10:02 AM

I forgot, thanks for your help.

atillathenunns 23-11-19 10:52 PM

Very rare to see the 5th Wellington badge being worn in the Middle East or in Europe:)

pukman 24-11-19 06:16 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by atillathenunns (Post 493103)
Very rare to see the 5th Wellington badge being worn in the Middle East or in Europe:)


I thought they were a bit out of the usual.


I see this offered as a genuine WW1 5th Wellington cap on Trade Me !!


Perhaps it is time for Attila to give a refresher course of information of Territorial/WW1/post war badges worn by the 5th Wellingtons ?? David Corbett's book did confuse everyone from the start .

nbroadarrowz 24-11-19 09:34 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Sounds like a challenge that anyone can pick up, so here goes.
The Territorial badges of the 5th Wellington Regiment have been a source of confusion.
The first image is from a photo album at the Alexander Turnbull Library and shows the collar badges with scrolls attached being worn by a captain. (circa late 1880-1890's). (this badge being worn in this period had not been recorded until now).

When the Territorial system was introduced in December 1909 and new badge designs were looked at across all regiments some had new badges designed while others used the badges all ready in use. This is the case with the collar badges of the 5th (Wellington) Regiment which were approved on 10th July 1911 (archives NZ file). This noted
5th (Wellington) Regiment Badges in use approved.
Collar.- Duke of Wellington's Crest i.e. lion bearing pennant over coronet. Motto on scroll at base "Virtutis Fortuna Comes".
Cap.- Duke of Wellington's crest - larger than collar badge and omitting motto.

What this official approval indicates is that the collars did in fact have a scroll and that the cap and collars were of a different pattern and that the 5th Wellington Regiment wore badges that were already in use.

The questions now are
1/ Where do the plain collars (without a scroll) fit in?
2/ Were there sufficient scrolled collars left over from the Volunteer period to fill the need of the TF?
3/ Did more scrolled collars get made pre-war for the Territorials and by whom?
4/ Are there any photos of this combination of badges?
5/ Was this combination of plain cap and scrolled collars worn until the 1920's when the cap badge with a scroll was introduced?

Something to think about.
Barry

atillathenunns 25-11-19 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz (Post 493166)
Sounds like a challenge that anyone can pick up, so here goes.
The Territorial badges of the 5th Wellington Regiment have been a source of confusion.
The first image is from a photo album at the Alexander Turnbull Library and shows the collar badges with scrolls attached being worn by a captain. (circa late 1880-1890's). (this badge being worn in this period had not been recorded until now).

When the Territorial system was introduced in December 1909 and new badge designs were looked at across all regiments some had new badges designed while others used the badges all ready in use. This is the case with the collar badges of the 5th (Wellington) Regiment which were approved on 10th July 1911 (archives NZ file). This noted
5th (Wellington) Regiment Badges in use approved.
Collar.- Duke of Wellington's Crest i.e. lion bearing pennant over coronet. Motto on scroll at base "Virtutis Fortuna Comes".
Cap.- Duke of Wellington's crest - larger than collar badge and omitting motto.

What this official approval indicates is that the collars did in fact have a scroll and that the cap and collars were of a different pattern and that the 5th Wellington Regiment wore badges that were already in use.

The questions now are
1/ Where do the plain collars (without a scroll) fit in?
2/ Were there sufficient scrolled collars left over from the Volunteer period to fill the need of the TF?
3/ Did more scrolled collars get made pre-war for the Territorials and by whom?
4/ Are there any photos of this combination of badges?
5/ Was this combination of plain cap and scrolled collars worn until the 1920's when the cap badge with a scroll was introduced?

Something to think about.
Barry

Hi Barry, going by a few period photos in my collection, between 1911 to 1923, scrolled 5th Wellington badges appear only to be worn by officers, and badges without scrolls are worn by ordinary ranks and officers.

I have no pre-1923 pictures of 5th Wellington officers wearing a "combination of plain cap and scrolled collars," I do have a scrolled cap and scrolled collar combination being worn in 1914 somewhere in my files.

Brent

atillathenunns 25-11-19 09:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 214839

The 1st Wellington Battalion 1898 badge design

pukman 25-11-19 10:05 PM

3 Attachment(s)
It would be great to build up a photo database of 5th Wellington badges being worn, to give a better understanding of when and where they were worn.


Here are two photos* taken in Samoa showing the hat badges. The newspaper clipping showing the collar badge (possibly territorial) .There should be others in the 4 Onward volumes.


*Matt Pomeroy collection.

atillathenunns 27-11-19 07:46 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by pukman (Post 493111)
I thought they were a bit out of the usual.


I see this offered as a genuine WW1 5th Wellington cap on Trade Me !!


Perhaps it is time for Attila to give a refresher course of information of Territorial/WW1/post war badges worn by the 5th Wellingtons ?? David Corbett's book did confuse everyone from the start .

My main area of collecting is headdress and sadly the cap on Trade me does not take my fancy, for me the cap construction/peak is definitely post WW1.
The cap badge however, could possibly be WW1, but would most likely need to look like the Gaunt made one pictured below.

Attachment 214886

Attachment 214887

atillathenunns 27-11-19 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pukman (Post 493243)
It would be great to build up a photo database of 5th Wellington badges being worn, to give a better understanding of when and where they were worn.

My 1st Wellington Battalion/5th Wellington Regiment badge database is always looking for new images:)
When I get a chance I will sort out and post some of the early 5th Wellington pictures I have.

atillathenunns 03-12-19 07:14 AM

1 Attachment(s)
It is unfortunate that Barry's first image, "from a photo album at the Alexander Turnbull Library and shows the collar badges with scrolls attached being worn by a captain. (circa late 1880-1890's)," is unnamed or dated.

However, taking a few facts into account, such as the cuff rank, which is that of a Lieutenant, and that the crest of the Duke of Wellington was first worn in 1892 as a badge by the Wellington City Rifles, I can pretty much narrow it down to being just one of four officers, with Lieutenant W. G Duthie at the top of my list.

The following picture shows Corporal Halpin of the Wellington City Rifles.
The picture is from the New Zealand Graphic and is dated 6th March 1897.
Note that Halpin is wearing what looks like a glengarry badge. (Oldham 2/220)

Attachment 215164

nbroadarrowz 03-12-19 07:52 AM

To be clear, what rank do you think the volunteer officer is?
Duthie was promoted captain in 1896 and it does look like him.
Barry

atillathenunns 03-12-19 08:11 AM

Hi Barry, the cuff rank is that of a Lieutenant, one wide stripe between two thin stripes, a Captain would have two wide stripes between two thin stripes.

Duthie joined the Wellington Rifles in 1890 and was promoted Lieutenant in 1891, he went on to join the Wellington City Rifles and was elected their Lieutenant on the 31st October 1893 and served at that rank until promoted Captain in February 1896.


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