Quarter Master Sergeant
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Hi all,
Does anyone have any thoughts if the following chap is a QMS? Thanks, Stephen |
I would say he has a Rifles pattern Colour badge over a single chevron on his right upper sleeve and is therefore a Colour Sergeant.
regards |
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Thanks Simon, I wasn't sure about him. This is the full image. Does anyone in it stick out as the QMS to you?
Thanks, Stephen |
Seated far right. 4 chevrons and crown/star on upper sleeve.
possible. regards |
Thanks Simon, was hoping he would have been one of that chaps with a single medal. Had he I would have been able to put a name to him. It is useful anyway and helps date the photo.
Thanks again, Stephen |
Lovely group, looks like battalion staff plus colour sergeants. The seating arrangement is a little unconventional: whereas the sergeant major is in his traditional place to officer's right, and with 4 chevrons point down, and crown, lower arm as 1869 regulations, the soldier tentatively identified as the QMS has been exiled to the flank. His badge appears to be 4 chevrons and crown upper arm. It can hardly be an eight point QMS star, not introduced until 1881. I do not know what his rank might be. Just possibly bugle major, 4 chevrons and bugle[s]. But then again in wrong position on arm.
A mystery perhaps. |
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They look like the Rifle Brigade to me, with sergeant major of battalion and QMS of battalion seated centrally, the former with pouch belt, the latter adjacent, both clutching their swords in left hand. I seem to recall that a musketry sergeant instructor wore 4-stripes on the upper arm at that time, so that would be the man far right behind the colour sergeant. This was a feature of all regiments of rifles heritage, both, regulars and volunteers. All the SNCOs dressed as ‘first class’ battalion staff are wearing frogged tunics, as per regulation. We can date the photo to between 1861 when the quilted shako worn was adopted, and 1871, when the sealskin busby replaced it.
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I had assumed the pouchbelt man was an officer, he might be the sergeant major but his cuff adornments might not be ranking.
The man next on his right has a badge above chevrons ...... as photo is clearly pre 1881 it is not the eight point star of a QMS. Might he be a sergeant major? The man identified as musketry instructor appears not to have crossed muskets in addition to a single badge above 4 chevrons. It is a pity that the photo lacks clarity. All in all a strange group ...... a frogged member of the Bugles in the back row, and one from the Bugles seated without frogging. Incidentally, Dawnay was a bit vague on Rifles badging in the period, rather wisely. |
Thanks Grumpy and Toby, I appreciate your input on the photo. I was hoping a quartermaster I'm interested in would be in the photo. As his only medal was a MSM I was hoping he would have been one of the men with a single medal.
Stephen |
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Only the staff sergeants’ pattern sword had a leather scabbard as seen here, officers scabbards were metal, brass for field rank and white metal for company officers. In this particular photo all rank stripes are point down, but the SM’s and QMS’s are lower down the sleeve. The rifle brigade pattern crossed rifles and crown badge was more subdued in that 1860s period with just the crown having a richer appearance. You can see something of this in the other photos that I posted showing sergeant instructors, albeit from later periods. On this rare occasion I am 100% positive regarding my earlier analysis. The 4-stripes badge of appointment of the sergeant instructor has been discussed many times before. I can recall even an extract of RVC orders referring to it, posted here by Graham Stewart. It was unique to regiments of rifles heritage. I’d date the photo to the years just before 1869. NB. The Rifle Brigade had not in that period yet adopted their later famous gold braid outlined rank stripes and instead had stripes formed from an Lincoln green worsted tape on a rifle green backing. That is what is seen in the photo. The bugle major has a frogged jacket because he is dressed as first class, but colour sergeants, sergeants or lance sergeants have plain tunics. |
I think this is too much of a digression for the OP. The photograph is fuzzy and lacks sufficient detail to merit further attempts at analysis.
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If the photo was taken in Ireland then it is the 2nd Battalion of the 60th Rifles, whose uniform was identical to the rifle brigade apart from the colour of their facings and their chevrons. In 1866 the 2/60th was based at the Curragh and in 1867 they were based in Cork.
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