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-   It's a Mystery -Unknown Insignia for Identification (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   Photo of Grandfather or Great Grandfathers Unit (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58954)

Coral Mustang 31-12-16 05:42 PM

Photo of Grandfather or Great Grandfathers Unit
 
1 Attachment(s)
Happy New Year!
I am new to Canadian Insignia. There is a lot of information out there, but I am not sure I m understanding all of the changes to uniforms and insigina as they relate to periods of time and wars.
I am doing family research and have been given a picture that no one knows when or with what service it depicts. Supposedly the regiment/squadron that my grandfather, maybe GGF, belonged to, but I see there are three different insignia in the grouping- which is interesting with the gentleman in the middle that is holding the hands of the other two 'regiments/squadrons'. I am not sure what branch they represent or if it is WWI or WWII (which was what my father believes). I see differences in pockets, insignia- maybe carryovers between wars. I believe they maybe Machine Gun units- three different countries maybe from the cap badges.

If anyone can shed some light on these questions and maybe the event that created this picture would be welcome-

Thank you for any light you can shed on this incredible picture, It has really opened up a lot of interesting history for me,
P

David Tremain 31-12-16 06:48 PM

They look like Machine Gun Corps to me.
David

Coral Mustang 31-12-16 08:20 PM

Photo
 
Thank you David!

Can you tell me if it is WWI or WWII? All Canadian? Or is it too hard to tell from the photo?

Alan O 31-12-16 09:08 PM

WW1 and after 1916 as one of your men has WW1 wound stripes. MGC is correct. The holsters are for pistols which was a trait peculiar to the enlisted men of the MGC unlike most other regts ORs.

BWEF 31-12-16 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coral Mustang (Post 388010)
Happy New Year!
I am new to Canadian Insignia. There is a lot of information out there, but I am not sure I m understanding all of the changes to uniforms and insigina as they relate to periods of time and wars.
I am doing family research and have been given a picture that no one knows when or with what service it depicts. Supposedly the regiment/squadron that my grandfather, maybe GGF, belonged to, but I see there are three different insignia in the grouping- which is interesting with the gentleman in the middle that is holding the hands of the other two 'regiments/squadrons'. I am not sure what branch they represent or if it is WWI or WWII (which was what my father believes). I see differences in pockets, insignia- maybe carryovers between wars. I believe they maybe Machine Gun units- three different countries maybe from the cap badges.

If anyone can shed some light on these questions and maybe the event that created this picture would be welcome-

Thank you for any light you can shed on this incredible picture, It has really opened up a lot of interesting history for me,
P

If you have a name you can probably get his attestation form for free online.

http://www.warmuseum.ca/supplyline/w...L_20140922.pdf

Bill A 31-12-16 10:14 PM

Interesting mix of MGC insignia. One gunner has the wide banner badge, at least two have the narrow banner pattern, and at least two have the imperial pattern cap badge. The collars appear to be the maple leaf pattern with the cross Vickers.
To narrow down the time period more, note the gunner on the left (bottom) side of the image is wearing a division patch with the MG arrow device imposed. Those patches were not introduced until the re-organization of the MG Corps in the Canadian Corps in February 1918.

peter monahan 01-01-17 03:51 PM

All are wearing British 5 button tunics, not the original issue 7 button model Canadians arrived in England with, so this too argues for a late war dating, as many/most Cdn troops were resupplied with British clothing while in France and only some, usually senior NCOs, appear in the 7 button model as late as '18.

Coral Mustang 01-01-17 05:22 PM

Thank you Peter-I now know why I was getting confused with the uniforms. Since I now know that this would be from my Great Grandfather- Thomas Gadd- wondering if the gentleman with the wound patch might be him- he was wounded- but I may be making a big leap.

Maybe a picture of them at wars end?

Coral Mustang 01-01-17 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill A (Post 388034)
Interesting mix of MGC insignia. One gunner has the wide banner badge, at least two have the narrow banner pattern, and at least two have the imperial pattern cap badge. The collars appear to be the maple leaf pattern with the cross Vickers.
To narrow down the time period more, note the gunner on the left (bottom) side of the image is wearing a division patch with the MG arrow device imposed. Those patches were not introduced until the re-organization of the MG Corps in the Canadian Corps in February 1918.

Thank you Bill- that is what I found interesting about this photo was that there were two of each soldier wearing one of three types of badges. Made me wonder if they were different countries- Canada and Great Britain or three different regiments all Canadian. Though it does look like the collar badges are the same, only the cap badges are different.
I did find the Division Patch in the 'Distinguishing Patches of Canadian Units'- unfortunately cannot tell what the colors are. But thinking either 3rd or 4th Battalion? Thank you also for the timing- helping to put this into family timeline.

Coral Mustang 01-01-17 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 388028)
WW1 and after 1916 as one of your men has WW1 wound stripes. MGC is correct. The holsters are for pistols which was a trait peculiar to the enlisted men of the MGC unlike most other regts ORs.

Thank you Alan, I thought the holsters and the pistols were interesting- looks like there maybe a couple of different types by the look of the handles. I see a lot of great history notes here. A great choreographed photo- wish I had some letters from my GGF to see if this was wars end and where it was taken.

BWEF 01-01-17 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coral Mustang (Post 388146)
Thank you Peter-I now know why I was getting confused with the uniforms. Since I now know that this would be from my Great Grandfather- Thomas Gadd- wondering if the gentleman with the wound patch might be him- he was wounded- but I may be making a big leap.

Maybe a picture of them at wars end?

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discove...es/search.aspx

Bill A 01-01-17 06:12 PM

Carol, it was not uncommon for different types of MG cap badges to be worn by men in the same unit. And, I think this is an image of a group of fellows from the same MG battalion, perhaps even these are men for one MG section.
There have been several discussions about the grey tones and translating that to colours. It is known that earlier images used different chemical compositions and that could throw off a grey tone "translation". Please see this thread http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=58688. On the face of it, the patch appears to be either 3 Div or 1 Div.
The contributors to this thread have given you a lot of leads to pursue. Please let us know how you make out.

Coral Mustang 01-01-17 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWEF (Post 388153)

Great site- Thank you!

Coral Mustang 02-01-17 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill A (Post 388157)
Carol, it was not uncommon for different types of MG cap badges to be worn by men in the same unit. And, I think this is an image of a group of fellows from the same MG battalion, perhaps even these are men for one MG section.
There have been several discussions about the grey tones and translating that to colours. It is known that earlier images used different chemical compositions and that could throw off a grey tone "translation". Please see this thread http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=58688. On the face of it, the patch appears to be either 3 Div or 1 Div.
The contributors to this thread have given you a lot of leads to pursue. Please let us know how you make out.

Thank you Bill for the link- I have gained so much great information here. I have the papers for my GGF which shows him in the 3rd Div. I also found his brother who was killed in action in France during the 'hundred days' and where his memorial is there.
I cannot thank this forum enough for the wealth of information- this part of my family has truly come to life!

peter monahan 02-01-17 02:40 PM

I'm putting the finishing touches on the biographies of 70 men from my area - Alliston, Simcoe Couty, Ontario - who died in WWI and two served in the MGC. Both were posted to the MGC batalion in the UK from infantry regiments broken up for reinforciong drafts on reaching England, and joined 18 months apart, so may very well have had different badging from 'originals' and earlier/later drafts. There were a number of variants on the MGC badge - the CEF Book Project on this forum shows a number of them.

Here is the full text of the 'Emma Gees' regimental hitory, BTW: https://archive.org/stream/canadiane...fuoft_djvu.txt

Coral Mustang 21-01-17 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter monahan (Post 388240)
I'm putting the finishing touches on the biographies of 70 men from my area - Alliston, Simcoe Couty, Ontario - who died in WWI and two served in the MGC. Both were posted to the MGC batalion in the UK from infantry regiments broken up for reinforciong drafts on reaching England, and joined 18 months apart, so may very well have had different badging from 'originals' and earlier/later drafts. There were a number of variants on the MGC badge - the CEF Book Project on this forum shows a number of them.

Here is the full text of the 'Emma Gees' regimental hitory, BTW: https://archive.org/stream/canadiane...fuoft_djvu.txt

Thank you for passing this along- really an interesting read!


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