Small Arms & Musketry
 

Hi,

Two badges for opinions please.

Thanks

Kevin

Top badge is a fantasy item also found in white metal and both often with red material behind the crown

regards

Kevin,
I'm not a fan of the bottom badge, Crown isn't right in my opinion.
Tony.

Bottom badge is a fake from the same die as the one featured in the Martin Marsh catalogues.

Top badge also appears in said catalogue.

Simon, Tony and Luke,

It`s unanimous, into the crap bin with both of them.

Thankyou all.

Kevin

Kevin,

I hope this crap bin is quite large because the majority of the badges you have shown today are destined for it.

No offence.

regards

Simon,

Yes it`s quite a large box and sadly there`s probably a lot more to go in it, years of naïve buying on fleabay to blame...……...:(

Kevin

Was there ever a genuine S of M badge with the thicker profile Lee Enfields? Mine has the earlier "thin" rifles.

Australian School of Musketry instructor in 1918, no idea if this is thick or thin SMLE.

Keith

No idea about the rifles, its the huge silly crown thats wrong on these particular badges.

regards

I disagree in this case Simon. There is photographic evidence that they were worn as rank badges on the arm of service dress during WW1 by warrant officers, CSMI and QMSI (the latter changing to a badge within a laurel wreath during the course of the war). This is why there are so many of them. However, to be genuine they must be looped and not with sliders. Unfortunately there have been reproductions with sliders. I transferred into and served with the SASC between 1984 and 1990 and as with all the corps whose cap badges that I wore I took a great interest in their history and dress, and for a while had the opportunity to root around in the photo archives that were held in the small arms museum at Battlesbury barracks. Rather like multi part shoulder title sets they were originally separate and issued with a back plate and cotter pins, but it was soon found convenient to brase them together into one device.

Toby,

I believe you are wrong in this instance.

They are a fake made up badge that first appeared in the 70's and come in GM & WM exactly the same.

If you are correct why are there equal numbers of WM ones?

I would like to see the photographic evidence you have of this style of badge in use.

regards

I don't mind at all if you don't believe me Simon, but I know what I saw, and I was not ignorant of what I was examining. It was of course pre-internet days and unlike now I didn't have a mobile phone with which to take a quick pic. The white metal are of course spurious and I have already said that there are a lot of reproductions with sliders. I enclose a cap and arm badge side-by-side. What is often not appreciated is that the SofM increased in size substantially during WW1, with schools at Each 'Command' within the UK (Southern, Eastern, etc.), as well as those in the Armies and Corps in France, the Base Depot at Etaples, and two in India.

Toby,

I didnt say I didnt believe you I just asked to see photographic evidence of them in use which you stated exists.

Personally I have never seen such photographs.

If you concede the WM versions are spurious then it follows the GM versions are too because they are identical and appeared on the market at the same time.

They have been made for 50 years in both metals, are available in numbers far higher than the total number of Instructors that ever existed and can be found with loops and with sliders.

They are prolific.

One can be found in virtually every provincial 'militaria' auction' in the same quantity as cloth SAS cap badges as well as ebay and the less knowledgable militaria dealers website.

regards

Very few of the photos that I was able to examine have ever been released to the public domain so of course you're not going to have "seen them" in wear yourself. Do an internet search and the few photos you will find are squad photos that belonged to students, mostly of sergeants. I've already conceded (twice) that there are a great many reproductions. There's nothing unusual about that given that old dies were sold off and many badges are industrially reproduced in India and Pakistan. I leave you to your beliefs, but it does not mean that I cannot post and explain my experiences. According to the recently published corps history the badge with large crown was introduced in 1907, when at the same time shoulder titles changed from worsted to gilding metal.