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41st Regiment Time Line
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I'm looking for some help on the timeline for these buttons to the 41st (later Welsh) Reg't please.
Photos 1 & 2 are of what I assume to be a Georgian period button from the crown. The maker is Hebbert & Co, London. Photos 3 & 4 are for a superb quality gilded button with the older, and wrong, style motto spelling (Gwell Augau Neu Chivilydd) usually associated with the mid Victorian period. Marked to the rear for Jennens & Co, London. However the c. 1831-39 pattern should look as shown in photos 4 & 5. marked to the rear Firmin & Sons, 153 Strand, London. The 1855 pattern is of course much different. Any information would be much appreciated. Diolch, Kevin |
I've managed to find out a little more regarding Hebbert & Co., from a sword forum.
It would appear that this style of marking was used c.1827-32 which would fit in for the style of crown used and the lack of any PoW plume device which came shortly thereafter. However, nothing solid so any light that anyone else can throw on these buttons will be appreciated. |
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Gruff,
Diolch ond na. Hebbert are not even listed in that directory. I have seen this directory before when looking at Firmin dates and find it rather confusing. Thanks anyway. Hwyl, Kevin |
That's because it's Herbert & Co.
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1 and 2 is an O/R's button from about 1831 to about 1855. Several similar examples have been excavated from the Crimea.
It's the officer's buttons that have the aditional features. I should amend this... O/R's are pewter at that date which implies that an officer's version of the O/Rs (brass) was made, possibly for something like the second battallion is often common. It could have been an expediency too.. if there was a difficult in the supply of the established pattern. Mounted buttons (with the design seperate to the button) are a strange thing, being very much a tailors special offering than a regimental standard and something you tend to find being often commissioned and employed not only on blazers and other 'civilian' coats often by retired officers etc, but by those who hated staybright offerings. |
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Hello,
Might I suggest that your mounted button by Jennens might be a "mufti" button, a non-regulation pattern button worn on the blue frock coat in the 1840-50 period. These were usually mounted buttons, often, but not always with just the initials of the regiment in cypher below a crown. Given the "royal" connection of this regiment, they may have opted to display the Prince of Wales' feathers and their motto instead of a cypher. The plain crown over 41 within a circle is not listed in Parkyn's "Shoulder Belt Plates and Buttons" but it may have been for a uniform other than the coatee (greatcoat perhaps). It seems to be an other ranks brass button and most other ranks coatee buttons were pewter I believe. Not much help I'm afraid but lovely buttons all the same! Regards Roger |
Gents,
It is not Herbert, definitely Hebbert. These last were a known Helmet, & accoutrement maker, amongst other things swords and in the later part of the 19thC railway and police buttons. At the time of the Crimea the 41st were a single battalion regiment, so not an option for a 2nd Batt'n button, and not like any ORs buttons of that era that I've seen before. At this time the Officers' Shako plates did have the PoW plumes device on, although they were not a "Royal" regiment. The title Welch not being granted until 1831 along with the motto and the use of the PoW plumes. I too have thought of the possibility of the overlaid example as a mufti use, however this is the early use of the spelling of the motto and one that should not be found in use at the time that blazers etc. were worn. Thanks for the input so far though. |
I can't help on the dating but have to comment on what lovely buttons they are. The misspelled examples in particular are superb.
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Hi there,
I too believe that the 'mounted' button is a Mufti button to the 41st circa 1830s-1850s, worn by Officers on non-Military Uniform Coats. I have seen two sizes of this particular button - 15mm and 22mm diameter and both had the same backmark of "JENNENS & Co. LONDON". As I understand it as these types of button were worn on 'mufti' (non-Military) coats they could not normally display the usual Mottoes or Battle Honours or devices etc. associated with the Regiment. This may explain the difference in the motto spelling, as a way around this restriction. A fabulous looking button though. Regards Ian |
Don't be too surprised about odd variations in mufti buttons.. I've been asked to make some modern ones using a mixture of period button elements as sources so that they convey a regiment without being confused with modern ones.
Often the customer wants something unique to represent the tradition yet not be mistaken for modern. Identical pattern of design (crown over number inside a ring) buttons for the 33rd (pre 1855), 38th (post 1855), 44th, 45th, 61st, 64th,67th, 94th, 97th and 99th all seem to date from around the 1855 to 1881 period with a couple earlier, so would seem to indicate a rough dating for that style. |
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I think it's safe to say that the button in 1 & 2 of this tread has to be pre-1855 as the button shown below is the pattern worn from 1855-1881 (this one has lost its' gilt finish).
Ian, The motto spelling is not different, it's the misspelled and wrong translation used in the early Victorian period, but I think we can all regard 3 & 4 to be some type of mufti button. |
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I have come across the button maker Hebbert as a backmark among my buttons but trying to locate the culprit/s is always elusive. When I eventually find, I will post for reference.
In the meantime I'd like to share the attached image of a silver or silvered large 27mm Mess Staff button to the 41st. Backmark is 'Firmin & Sons Ld. 153 Strand London'. The inclusion of the 'Ld.' assigns a date commencing from 1876. May I ask if this design was changed after 1881 or if it continued in use in the Mess as a numbered regiment. GTB |
Message deleted - wrong forum, sorry!
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