Rhodesian SAS and Selous Scouts
 

I know of one members of the Rhodesian SAS who also served with the Selous Scouts. Would he have been entitled to wear both sets of jump wings at the same time?

Blue,

Yes he would wear SAS wings on shoulder, or chest if awarded by Regiment. Scout wings would be worn on right breast only.

Clay

Evidence?

I don't think I have seen both, actually being worn together at the same time, perhaps you can show a photograph?

Apparently not then?

I have but I want to check something before I make a comment.

I have only ever seen once another para wing worn along with the Selous Scouts wing worn on the same shirt. I'll explain this with photos in a moment.

Apart from this one instance I have never seen it.
Jonathon Pittaway who wrote two books on the Selous Scouts may have seen it. He is a member of this forum.

There is nothing like belting someone over early morning coffee who has sold a fake or added to a uniform for whatever reason.

Let me clarify that I believe if one adds to a uniform then that particular jacket, shirt etc is not authentic to the person who once wore it even though the items added might be authentic. Call me a purist or whatever but that has been my mantra ever since I started collecting.

If one adds an item that should not be there and eventually that part of the uniform gets sold but the buyer is never told then there is a very high probability that the buyer will believe that that item was on that uniform when it was worn by the service person it belonged to.
I'll take it one step further. If the buyer is told that that item was added to the uniform and down the track the uniform is sold but he/she doesn't tell their buyer, then you have a change in historical fact.
Not all collectors are honest just as not all dealers are honest.

The only shirt or jacket that I have ever seen with the eyelets for the Selous Scouts wing and another wing (Army or SAS) being worn is on a shirt that was once owned and worn by Lt.Col Ron Reid-Daly CLM, DMM, MBE.
This shirt is now owned by James Morgan who lives in Canada. People may know that both Craig Fourie and myself had a public debate on this forum with him over his deceit in an arrangement the three of us had before the majority of Ron Reid-Daly's military items were sold at auction in South Africa. I believe the thread is still on here so anyone can read it if they want.

I have all of the details and photos of the auction, including photos that I asked for and were sent to me by the auction house.
I also have private photos that were taken by Craig Fourie in Ron's house of a lot of Ron's military items. I have never made these photos public.

Let's go to historical fact. Before the Selous Scouts bronze para wings came into existence, members of the regiment that were either para trained with the RhSAS or the RLI or the RAR wore those particular wings on their right shoulder. When the bronze wings were made by Reuteler and issued to the Scouts that were para trained then the army or SAS wings were removed and the Selous Scout wing worn on the chest on the right hand side of the recipient. There is evidence that some of the para trained scouts never wore the Selous Scouts wing on their camo uniform but continued to wear the army wing instead. This is not conclusive and I don't want to deviate from the thread.

The shirt below was owned and worn by Ron Reid-Daly. It was in the auction of most of his militaria that was sold by auction in South Africa and the shirts were sold in a lot. Yes crazy I know but they were. James Morgan a Canadian won the shirts (they sold cheaply I might add).
None of the shirts had a para wing sown on them. The only uniform of Ron's that had a para wing sown on it was his mess dress uniform which I won.
When the Selous Scouts bronze para wing was issued (Ron received two and one was stolen) Ron had the SAS wings removed and he only ever wore to my knowledge the Selous Scouts wing from that time on unless he was in mess dress. The scouts never had a mess dress para wing.

When I saw this photo of one of Ron's shirts with the RhSAS wing (from the 60's) and the eyelets for his Selous Scout wing on the shirt then I knew that Morgan had added the wing to the shirt. This changes historical fact.

Attachment 201816

Here is a screenshot of the listing of the wings (the Malayan Scouts patch is a fake) as taken from the auction catalogue.
Attachment 201823

Here is a photo of the wing (the bottom one) that has been added to the shirt.
Attachment 201825

Here is a photo taken by Craig in Ron's house showing the wings that went to auction. The wing is the one on the top left hand side. I have never shown this photo before.
Attachment 201826

Hopefully this answers the question asked by Blue Puttees.

Why would James Morgan be allowed to stay a member of this forum when he alters a uniform that changes historical fact particularly one that belonged to someone of such significance?
Well because we know that the powers to be are weak and non-confrontational.
Thankfully for people that want the truth there are people like Craig and myself who are prepared to state it publicly and privately.

Therefore, one does wonder just where this information actually comes from then?:confused:

Gentlemen,

I just came back to this thread. Re-reading the original post I failed to clarify what I meant to write and stated only position of said wings. Mea culpa. The wearing of both at once would appear to not be the case. I think it would be rare that an SAS man would give up the wings won so hard.

Reading all the other posts especially Peter's who I admire for his great knowledge, I realize that the picture of Ron Reid Daly's uniform is the same one (albeit in a slightly different setting) I had seen in which both wings were on it. Since it was RRD's and it was presented as such, I didn't question it. After all he was the "Man". Like Peter, I certainly would not "dress up" such a historical piece. I did not give it the critical eye a collector should.

I am humbled and wish to apologize for presenting inaccurate/ incomplete information and causing such consternation among fellow collectors.

Clay

Apologies certainly not needed, I just wondered where you got the information from and assumed you must have seen individual soldiers actually wearing both wings, during the UDI period, which I am sure that I have never seen.

All good Clay, no apologies are needed. As Ron Reid-Daly served in 'C' Squadron if any man in the Selous Scouts had any reason to wear both wings it would have been him, but he didn't.
A number had previously served in the RhSAS including Chris Schulenburg GCV, SCR and WoC, Stretch Franklin SCR and Dale Collett SCR and yet none of them wore both wings.

I think I'm right in saying that the late Clive Mason also had service with Royal Marines, Australian and Rhodesian SAS and Selous Scouts.

Ritchie.

You're correct. He had served in Vietnam with the Aussie SAS.
He was a renowned sniper and the Rhodesian army didn't have many snipers. Unfortunately for Clive he was counter sniped, I think in Mozambique.

That's Clive on the right with the mo.
Attachment 202084

Hard to believe his medals sold for just £1,050 in 2004.

Thanks Peter ... served with Clive, Recce Troop, 40 Commando, Borneo '65-'66... he could take the eyebrows off a gnat at 100 paces !

Ritchie.