The first Australian tank crewman?
 

For the Australian armoured enthusiasts.

You may be interested in the photo on the State Library of South Australia in the following link -

https://www.flickr.com/photos/state-.../pool-slsaww1/

https://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/advancing/MarkIV/

What is interesting about this bloke, who was serving with the Australian Mechanical Transport Service at the time of the photo, see NAA: B2455; GIFFORD, Frederick George, is that he was not a sergeant while he was in the AIF. Possibly this was a Home Service rank while he was peddling around the product demonstrator.

In 1928 MBI 26/1928 approved a special badge of a tank in worsted for WOs and NCOs above lance-sergeant. This badge was never manufactured or issued according to a minute from the Director of Ordnance Services to HQ 2nd District Base on 15 August 1930 in response to a request from the latter for these badges.

Years ago I corresponded with Paul Handel at what is now Aust Army Armour Museum in regard to the brass metal tank badge. He was unable to confirm that these were worn, nor, despite their appearance in PVCNs have I ever been able to. However he provided me with copies of a couple of photos a former member of the ATC supplied in response to my request that show embroidered examples worn on the blue service dress jacket prior to the war. Embroidered gold on blue tanks do appear in PVCN, both types are stated to be not current issue and no longer supplied in 1940.

I would be interested in anybody who can show me a brass or metal tank badge with provenance worn by the Australian Tank Corps.

Cheers, Keith

Not too sure if this is what you are talking about? But these are my ones.

I was actually after any idea of the brass tank arm badges Burt but nice lot anyway.

The brass Australian Tank Corps badge in your collection is 1930 onwards, I think the design by the tenderer was accepted about August 1930 for issue.

I don't know about the oxidised copper badge above it though, seems pretty 'new' but I don't collect anything to Australia other than artillery so no expert at all.

Cheers, Keith

Hi Keith, my understanding was that they were lucky to get the tanks in 1930 and all the equipment appears to be British. Certainly the black berets were sent by the RTC and in the photo's of them with the tanks at Ranwick in Feb 1930 they appear to be wearing the British tank suit( forerunner of British BD). Neither they or Penfold appear to wear an arm badge. I don't know when the AC were issued with arm badges but the earliest picture I've seen is 2nd Armoured Brigade in 1942, but I'm sure it was well before that. The armoured car regiments had metal arm badges but you probably already know that. Which brings us back to the brilliant photo of the tank arm badge. It is what I would call the typical issue 1st WW tank arm badge though I know of it being used in 1938. What is the colour badge? I'm assuming it's not 1st WW or could it be a TC battalion flash worn by him as he was attached to a tank unit maybe at the battles of Hamel or Amiens? I bow to you as an expert on Australian Badges but the only three colour flashes I know of that fit the bill were tank flashes. Food for thought and thanks for an interesting picture, best wishes Mike

Hi, further, the 13th TC were supporting the 43rd, unfortunately they had a green and black flash, but they were using Gun Carrying tanks for resupply but their flash was blue white blue. Each inf. bat. was expected to provide 12 L/Cpls( 1 per tank) to assist the tank observers up to the line and to be responsible for off loading the S.A.A which was to be carried for the Infantry. This taken from 13th Tanks instructions 6th August 1918. Also in the instructions were was the statement that if infantry were held up or required assistance they should put a steel helmet on a rifle, I'd always thought that was to indicate fallen or wounded men. The supply company was No4 Supply Company (Mk11 tanks). A common sign on tanks was white red white, but I've never heard of it been worn, best wishes Mike

Nice collection. The small enamel one there is a RAAC Association badge.

Mick

Hi Keith,

Another great post!

That badge he is wearing looks to be a similar design to the brass one in my collection.

Regards,

Mick

Hi Mike, his 'flash' is the colour patch of the Australian Mechanical Transport Service, light grey/scarlet/light grey, worn in the UK and Egypt. Had me stumped too when I saw it, I immediately started looking at British Tank Corps flashes assuming he was attached to them. He was detached to Bovington to train as tank crew according to his service record.

Originally the tank arm badge was for WOs of the Australian Instructional Corps and NCOs above the rank of L/Sgt of the Australian Tank Corps. In 1934 the wording became a bit more ambiguous, allowing it to be worn by NCOs above L/Sgt serving in or attached to the Tank Corps - I think this might have been to provide for the Sgts of the attached Tank Section AASC(P). Given Australian mechanization practices at the time all mechanical vehicles were on charge to the AASC(P).

Then in 1936 all ranks of the Australian Tank Corps were allowed to wear a silk embroidered arm badge provided it was not supplied at public expense. No doubt the unit probably obtained a supply of these from the UK and they would be identical to those in use by RTR.

Keith

Hi Keith, when do you think the photograph was taken? Is he wearing blackened titles? I assume the 1915 taken detail is wrong. Do you have any idea how many were sent to Bovington? Sorry for all the questions but I find it fascinating, thanks for answers so far, best wishes Mike

No problems Mike, this photo must have been taken after he returned to Australia in 1918 and was posted to the Home Service establishment. As I mentioned he never rose above the rank of Private while he was in the AIF.

I couldn't tell you how many men were involved - what was tank crew in those days, 8 I think? These were probably all unfit for active service and were to be returned home in any case so they were given training in tank maintenance and driving and came back to Australia with the vehicle. No doubt as soon as the war finished the tank was packed up and the blokes discharged.

The AUSTRALIA titles were manufactured in oxidised copper, i.e., blackened, in Australia, no doubt several metals and finishes were used in any stocks supplied abroad.

Keith

Hi Keith, interesting. I always thought the curved title was active force only. Tried to download his records this morning but seems to be an error somewhere. Here are my only Australian tank badges, don't know if they help you, best wishes Mike

hi mike
whats the difference in colour and what period are these
bc

Second World War onwards bc, until 1957 for us. Blue was brigade-major of an armoured brigade, red was a divisional staff officer, probably the GOC because most of the other staff posts had the initials of the appointment added.

The grey felt behind the tank is interesting.

Keith

Hi Keith, the red armband has an O and I couldn't think who else would have a grey felt backing, happy to be told otherwise, best wishes Mike

Hi, Gifford became a sergeant in the AMF crewing "Grit" raising money from war bonds. There were 9 members of this crew all trained in Bovington but medically unfit for action and purely trained for the war bond drive. Much more detail in the book "Pioneers of Australian Armour in the Great War" by David Finlayson and Michael Cecil, best wishes Mike