British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/index.php)
-   Anodised Aluminium Badges (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82)
-   -   Question about anodised South Wales Borderers badge (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40700)

L1A1 19-07-14 03:07 PM

Question about anodised South Wales Borderers badge
 
Hi All

I was just looking at C.R Cunliffe's excellent anodised badge collection on his website when I saw a picture of an anodised SWB cap badge. Underneath the caption it stated that it was an unofficial commission.

My particular interest in this badge is that I am currently putting together a collection of British Army badges for the year 1968 (September to be exact - month of my birthday).

The South Wales Borderers were still in existence at this time, so what I would like confirmation of is, what cap badge did they wear at this time? Until I saw the badge website, I thought that they wore this anodised badge but now I am guessing they might have still been wearing the Welsh Brigade badge until they became part of the Royal Regiment of Wales.

Any information would be most appreciated

regards

Ron

49lassiepen 19-07-14 03:42 PM

Not sure about unofficial ,was worn by the cadets Dowler marked I have photo kindly supplied by Eddie from his research at N.A.M into Mons and S.W.B Card of insignia worn by cadets I do not think the regulars wore the a/a badge Many of my patients used to be ex S.W.B and they all stated that they went from BI/M to the brigade badge
David

Mike H 19-07-14 03:44 PM

There is a marked version of the SWB badge. They are made by Dowler Bham.

49lassiepen 19-07-14 03:50 PM

I think the unmarked examples were made/commissioned by a certain gent in the 1970;s As Chris said should have been 1980 ,s

L1A1 19-07-14 04:25 PM

Thank you Lassiepen49 and Mike H, what you have stated sounds like the most logical option. Good in a way too, I have seen how much those anodised SWB badges go for on the net, all I can say is ouch!!!!

Mike H 19-07-14 06:26 PM

It could be that if the cadets wore the a/a badge then they probaly wore it well after the regular battalion had been amalgamated. That being the case the unmarked versions could well have been worn by the cadets after the marked versions had been exhausted. As people like badger have stated some Y&L cadets wore the cap badge long after the regulars had gone .This could well apply to the SWB too.
Related to this,a certain CCF now wear their own badge again. The commander owns the badge dies and are marked firmin .

Mike H 19-07-14 06:32 PM

From evidence it appears that the only marked versions were made by Dowler. No other marked examples have been identified.

49lassiepen 19-07-14 06:33 PM

Mike will try and find photo of the insignia of the S W B cadets a/a badge Dowler marked clearly shown

hagwalther 20-07-14 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L1A1 (Post 270471)
Hi All

I was just looking at C.R Cunliffe's excellent anodised badge collection on his website when I saw a picture of an anodised SWB cap badge. Underneath the caption it stated that it was an unofficial commission.

My particular interest in this badge is that I am currently putting together a collection of British Army badges for the year 1968 (September to be exact - month of my birthday).

The South Wales Borderers were still in existence at this time, so what I would like confirmation of is, what cap badge did they wear at this time? Until I saw the badge website, I thought that they wore this anodised badge but now I am guessing they might have still been wearing the Welsh Brigade badge until they became part of the Royal Regiment of Wales.

Any information would be most appreciated

regards

Ron

Hi Ron,

The example that Chris is showing is an unofficial commission that was made by Gaunt probably in the late 1980's after being commission to do so by a dodgy dealer who flogged them off from his stall in the Arches at Charing Cross for 25 quid a pop.

The authentic badge was officially authorised and was priced, on on 25th November 1966, at 5 shillings and 3 pennies each. The example to obtain is the one made by Dowler and this is the one found on the standard pattern cards dated the 8th April 1964.

All this info is in my book with an example on page 271.

Regards

Chris

41st 20-07-14 09:40 AM

I have been told by curators at the SWB museum who served in the SWB that the anodised badges were worn only by the cadets. Only repeating what I've been told mind.

As to what cadets wore and what the regulars wore I can say that when I was a cadet in the 70s we wore the old Welsh Brigade badge whereas the regulars were badged as RRW.

Hwyl,
Kevin

Mike H 20-07-14 10:27 AM

The term "cadets" covers a vast spectrum of possibilities. Could be ACF or CCF,i wouldn't have a clue how many units that would have covered in the SWB area. Saying that though the could have been an out of the local area affiliation eg :- Wellington College Berkshire wearing the DWR cap badge for a period of time in the mid nineties.

L1A1 20-07-14 01:23 PM

Thanks Chris

Your book is on the top of my list of future book purchases!

eddie 20-07-14 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49lassiepen (Post 270511)
Mike will try and find photo of the insignia of the S W B cadets a/a badge Dowler marked clearly shown

Hi,
The insignia of the SWB cadets, just up dated my album.
Eddie

hagwalther 20-07-14 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L1A1 (Post 270608)
Thanks Chris

Your book is on the top of my list of future book purchases!

Thanks L1A1,

Just let me know when you want a copy and I'll get one off to you.

There is more info in the book regarding this badge and it was also authorised to another unit - don't want to give too much away...

Regards

Chris

hagwalther 20-07-14 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagwalther (Post 270563)
Hi Ron,

The example that Chris is showing is an unofficial commission that was made by Gaunt probably in the late 1980's after being commission to do so by a dodgy dealer who flogged them off from his stall in the Arches at Charing Cross for 25 quid a pop.

The authentic badge was officially authorised and was priced, on on 25th November 1966, at 5 shillings and 3 pennies each. The example to obtain is the one made by Dowler and this is the one found on the standard pattern cards dated the 8th April 1964.

All this info is in my book with an example on page 271.

Regards

Chris


Hi Guys,

Sorry - I am going to correct myself here. If Chris' website is showing a Dowler example of the South Wales Borderers cap badge then it is an officially authorised piece and his website should reflect this fact. However, if it is an unmarked example with a slider attributed to Gaunt then my comments stand.

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Regards

Chris

Jack8 20-07-14 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike H (Post 270510)
From evidence it appears that the only marked versions were made by Dowler. No other marked examples have been identified.

I have one marked H.W. Timings Ltd, B'Ham

Cheers,

Jack

Mike H 21-07-14 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack8 (Post 270671)
I have one marked H.W. Timings Ltd, B'Ham

Cheers,

Jack

Can you post an image please.

Jack8 21-07-14 05:04 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Here you go.

Mike H 21-07-14 06:04 PM

Thanks for that,thats the first one ive seen that isn't blank or a Dowler one

Jack8 21-07-14 08:05 PM

[QUOTE=Mike H;270750]Thanks for that,thats the first one ive seen that isn't blank or a Dowler one.

Has anyone else here seen one, I picked mine up quite a few years ago with a Welsh Regiment one also by Timings?

Mike H 21-07-14 08:25 PM

Welsh regt with Timings slider is correct.

Jack8 21-07-14 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike H (Post 270779)
Welsh regt with Timings slider is correct.

Should I be doubting my SWB badge, are there fake SWB Timings marked ones around?

Mike H 21-07-14 09:22 PM

I dont know Jack. Its not one ive come across before.

Jack8 21-07-14 09:36 PM

I never really thought about it before now, I welcome some more opinion on this badge. I have just looked through the Timings thread on here and it was not mentioned.

Cheers,
Jack

Mike H 21-07-14 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack8 (Post 270803)
I never really thought about it before now, I welcome some more opinion on this badge. I have just looked through the Timings thread on here and it was not mentioned.

Cheers,
Jack

Doesnt mean its not a genuine item. There is no definative list to which badges exist let alone who they were made by. Most of what is known is through collectors exchanging info and books etc.

Jack8 21-07-14 11:50 PM

Thanks for your replies Mike. Does anyone else have any comments regarding this badge/maker combination?

Cheers,
Jack

hagwalther 22-07-14 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack8 (Post 270790)
Should I be doubting my SWB badge, are there fake SWB Timings marked ones around?

Hi Jack,

There is a fake Timings mark about but the one shown on your badge is good - more info on page 48 of Anodised Alunminium: The 'No Bull' Cap Badge of the British Army.

The other thing to consider is the slider - is this slider attributed to those used by Timings? Always difficult to tell from images but your badge appears to have one that looks like the item shown on page 67 of same book being the 5.1 Tombstone piece.

Regards

Chris

Jack8 22-07-14 10:26 AM

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your input. It's good to know that you think that the mark is a genuine Timings mark.

As for the slider I do not have a copy of your book to compare it to the 5.1 Tombstone one on page 67 that you mention.

Is the 5.1 Tombstone slider regarded as a typical Timings one or not?

Regards,
Jack

hagwalther 22-07-14 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack8 (Post 270853)
Hi Chris,

Thanks for your input. It's good to know that you think that the mark is a genuine Timings mark.

As for the slider I do not have a copy of your book to compare it to the 5.1 Tombstone one on page 67 that you mention.

Is the 5.1 Tombstone slider regarded as a typical Timings one or not?

Regards,
Jack

Hi Jack,

I looked at all 14 makers of A/A cap badges and their sliders and identified three that were used with Timings badges. I allocated the number 5 to the Timings company and then an iterativer number for the sliders used being:

5.1: Tombstone
5.2: Asymmetrical
5.3: Shark Head

see page 67.

Some companies had more designs of sliders such as Gaunt (maker no. 6) who used 10 different slider designs. All very nerdy but very useful if one wanted to understand the relationships between certain companies and also to identify those responsible for manufacturing dodgy examples.

If you really want to know about A/A cap badges then Anodised Aluminium: The 'No Bull' Cap Badge of the British Army should answer your questions.

Regards

Chris

Jack8 22-07-14 09:38 PM

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your reply. So the mark is good, although difficult to tell from images the slider appears to be one used with Timings badges.

There appears to be a fair chance that this badge is 100% correct, if so I would think it could be a scarce example.

My interest in badges is mainly special forces these days, but I do have an eclectic mix collected over many years which includes approximately fifty A/A badges.

Cheers,
Jack

hagwalther 22-07-14 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack8 (Post 270924)
Hi Chris,

Thank you for your reply. So the mark is good, although difficult to tell from images the slider appears to be one used with Timings badges.

There appears to be a fair chance that this badge is 100% correct, if so I would think it could be a scarce example.

My interest in badges is mainly special forces these days, but I do have an eclectic mix collected over many years which includes approximately fifty A/A badges.

Cheers,
Jack

Hi Jack,

As the mark is good the slider can be implied to be OK too. Sometimes it can be difficult to tell, from an image, which particular slider is used by a company.

Regards

Chris

Jack8 24-07-14 12:10 PM

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your opinion.

Will this Timings version of the SWB A/A now be noted as a probable genuine variation or are collectors not convinced?

I welcome further opinions or comments from other members.

Cheers,
Jack


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:02 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.