Date a glengarry
 

Hello! Is it possible to date this glengarry just with the maker markings? The band is not leather...is sinthetyc...thank you!
Attachment 250931

Attachment 250932

Attachment 250933

Attachment 250934

Attachment 250935

No badge markings

Attachment 250936

Impossible to date with certainty, but leather bindings were usually worn by officers and could be as early as WW1 all the way up to WW2. Leather bindings tended to be discontinued in the 1940s, but that is a private purchase Glen, so could have been ordered by the officer as late as that time.

CB

But the band is not leather... is sinthetyc...that means is not a wartime glen?

I did not understand that it is not leather. I don't know what you mean by synthetic. Is it grosgrain cloth?

CB

I am talking about this band...
Attachment 250974

It is not grosgrain...when I saw the pictures first time I thought It was leather, but Seller told me It is not...I asked him if it was Sky (syntetic leather) but he told me that It is some kind of sinthetyc cloth...nylon or similar...but not grosgrain...

I know that actually Glengarries have grosgrain bands...but I don't know the material of the wartime glengarries bands...I know that WWI glengarries had leather bands...but wich material came after that? Grosgrain? Or the sinthetyc cloth of the glengarry I show here?

I see now, that is a polished cotton binding, not synthetic, which was just a custom feature used by the private maker. That is not a WD issue Glen. Again, it could date anywhere from WW1 to WW2. A very nice cap!
Leather was not always used on earlier Glens. The older Grosgrain was made from Rayon, which was also used for the ribbon tails. Sometime in the 1960s or 70s, the material changed to Nylon Grosgrain.

CB

So in your opinion it is not an army issue glengarry, but it is wartime...right?

Trubia26,

It is not in my opinion, Army issue Glengarry as the dicing colours are not right, the dicing colour should be Red, White and Dark Green for the King's Own Scottish Borderers and not black as illustrated in your example. However, some manufactures produce Glengarries for the civilian marked with Dark Blue and Black dicing rather than dark green, the green which one may describe as 'Bottle Green' can be difficult to see, this depends on the quality of the photograph and the kind of light used or not used.

What make me believe its a civilian Glengarry is the marking on the crown inside. Although officers did private purchase their uniform, the items strictly adhered to the regulation patterns, the regiments had selected tailors that the newly commissioned officer was advised to use, who held pattern books for their regiment also a copy of the regiments dress regulations as guidance.

As there is no badge holes on the rosette one will never know it origin or history of service, if any.

Best
Hiram

Officers uniforms were generally privately purchased and not issued in ww2 and before.
It is genuine old Glengarry that would have been worn by a serving officer or possibly an NCO who could afford to make a private purchase.
Your Glen is more desirable and scarce than a common WD issue.

CB

That sounds great Cbhueler! I like the Glen and your opinion makes the Glen more desirable...thank you!

Hiram, thanks for your help...I know that the really correct colour is green...but I have an army marked glengarry (about 80's era) and it is red, white and black...so I think that maybe the maker decided to use black instead a dark green colour...

Hi Hiram,

Am i reading that correct ,in that you are saying all British Army glengarry's have a central green colour dice and never black :confused: [That's my collection knackerd then :eek::eek: ] The dicing colours/ pattern was different for some Scottish regiments or is it that the dark green you mention on all glengarrys appears black ? of the top of my head Kings Own Scottish Boarders had the Red, White, Green that's the only one i can remember at the moment, as the glengarry isn't badged we cant determine its Regiment or am i missing something ?

Gerard

The dicing is red, dark blue, white; which is correct.

CB

The Green over time gets lighter with age, but originally dark green.

Best
Hiram

Hiram,

Nice example of a dicing.

Gerry

Attachment 251165

Finally I bought...and as you can see the material used for the band is the same used for the ribbon tails...I agree with all of you that it is not an army issue glengarry...but I think it is wartime and I want to think that maybe, just maybe, belongs to a scottish soldier...to dream its free! :D

It must be me but this thread has got me a bit confused ( not difficult nowadays :confused) I’ve read it all a few times but it’s got me lost if not army issue are you saying it’s not a military glengarry? Or private purchase worn but still military? It looks a perfectly good example to me .

Gerard

Well...I am a rookie about this...I only know that is not an army issue glengarry (not WD stamp inside) so I think it could be civilian or (I wish) a private purchase military glengarry...sorry if this thread confuse you...I am afraid I don't know too much about glengarries...just that I like them!

I see by the close up photo that the binding and ribbons are silk. A nice officer's Glen. I think the confusion that people have here is in regard to WD issue uniform items and officer private purchase uniform items. As I mentioned earlier, virtually all officer uniform items in the old days were not issued by the Government. They had to be purchased from private military tailors by the officer. This Glen could have been purchased by an officer for service wear, or a civilian for whatever reason as well. There is no difference and unless there is provenance, no way to tell. It is military pattern and I would be quite comfortable in having it as such.

CB

Yes...I am really Happy for having this glengarry in my collection and I am really thankfull to you because your opinions made me bought this beautiful Glengarry!!

Trubia,

I have enlarged your original photograph of the logo inside and I can tell you it says 'Romans & Patterson' and the last bit is 'Edinburgh' this firm have traded on Princess St Edinburgh since 1830's specializing in Tartans and other Scottish garb for the tourist and private purchase. They do not and never have held a Clothing Warrant to supply uniform items for the military. Take Jardine's of Edinburgh for example they do have a Warrant and are supplied with the various regiments pattern books to ensure what the supplied is in keeping within the dress regulations, be it for an Officer or OR's. I have attached a short history of the makers of your Glengarry. It may well have been a private purchase by an officer or soldier, but as there are no badge holes it has never been worn on military service, but may have been worn by the tartan Army or at Murrayfield.

OR's Military Glengarries came with a code stamped inside, however, Officers are a private purchase, for example our regimental approved tailor was Mayer & Mortimer, who hold our pattern books see picture of the said book.

Best
Hiram


Romanes & Patersons.
Were a well-known and long-established Tartan dealers of 62 Princes Street, Edinburgh. In the early 1960s the Newtonmore Clan MacPherson museum was presented with a large leather-bound volume containing the collection of specimens of Clan Tartans compiled by Messrs. Romanes & Paterson, This volume was presented on 9th August, 1839, by the firm to the museum of H. M. William, Esq., as is recorded by a manuscript docquet thereon of that date.
The collection consists of sixty-nine specimens of hard tartan cloth, measuring in most cases approximately 12-inches by 9-inches, carefully bound at the edges and representing setts allocated at the time of publication to almost the same number of Highland Clans and Lowland families. Romanes & Paterson's collection must have been compiled prior to 1839, probably round about 1830. Logan, the author of The Scottish Gael, published in 1831, was engaged in collecting tartans prior to that date and Messrs. Stewart Christie & Co., George Street, Edinburgh, have a pattern book of tartans which, it is thought, was compiled in 1820-1830. This collection consists of specimens of tartan cloth as in the case of Romanes & Paterson's book. There is a similar collection, dated 1815, compiled by General Sir William Cockburn and now in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow. In response to enquiry, Romanes & Paterson could not give any authentic information as to the date or origin of their collection.

I agree with Hiram especially on the very salient point of lack of holes for a badge.

Like you said it’s free to dream but I fear any military connection in the case of this glengarry is just that.

As the saying goes - it is, what it is. Quite simply in this case that means a well made and attractive glengarry of some quality. A nice piece worth treasuring :)

Hiram,

Spot on, there are numerous tourist shops in Edinburgh (and have been for a long time) selling Glengarries, some are downright dreadful, others look the part but from a military perspective are not the real deal and would stand out on parade.

There are loads of fake or made-up items on auction and dealers sites which I have to laugh at, wrong badge to the style etc, if you want the real thing buy one with a makers name, WD stamp, NATO stock number or even better worn with an original cap badge, some are expensive others are within most budgets.

Good piece about Romanes & Patersons.

Gerry

Well...again, thanks a lot to all of you for the valuable info and opinions you leave in here ...militar or not I am Happy with this glengarry and really happy for getting so many help from people with so many knowledge about this. It is a pleasure to come here and read you!

Hi Luke H and Gerry,

Thank you, here is some useful information when it comes identification of Scottish Regimental Glengarries issued by ordinance stores, obviously officers Glengarries are a different animal, but nevertheless, must conform with the pattern books.

Best
Hiram

Headdress markings which includes Glengarries.

For example : P is the date letter for 1941 and 1947, see table below, throughout for WWII markings it is usually underneath.

WWI headgear sometimes uses a P as party of the WD code markings.

T =1937 & 1956 *, s =1938 & 1957, r = 1939 & 1948, q =1940, p =1941, o =1942, n =1943, m =1944 & 1953,
z =1945, l =1945, 1946 & 1953, e, p =1947 *, r=1948, a =1949, b, a =1950 *, b =1951, c =1952, l =1953,
m =1954, d, o ,t =1955 *, t =1956 & 1937, s =1957, f =1958, x =1959 *.

The letters are believed to relate to the Depots tasked with Receipt and storage.
In Sept 1915 these were:
Pimlico (London)
Olympia (London)
White City (London)
Marylebone (London)
Leeds
Manchester (Trafford Park) Only set-up for receipt of US and Canadian Made Uniforms and in process of shutting down)
Possible other: Glasgow, and Dublin. Stamps I have encountered are E, L, M, N, O, P
I believe that
L=Leeds
M=Marylebone
O=Olympia
P=Pimlico
All Caps have either an O for caps made 1915-early 1917 or a P for deliveries after early 1917. Interestingly, several caps have come to the surface that have stamps from 1918-1922 using the pre-war RACD system that Pimlico used of W/ID over number over date.
This leads one to believe caps were coming into PIMLICO and the system reverted back to pre-war ways of doing business circa 18/19.

Below is a useful guide on Scottish Regiments Glengarries, although the colours are not exact in shade or definition, beware you can find copies of for sale sometimes, a good oily inside is a WW1 trait and off having been well worn, holes are also important where badges went, all these little things ticked and help one authenticate the real deal.