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-   -   Different PO cap badges (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84198)

nbroadarrowz 05-04-21 03:32 AM

Different PO cap badges
 
2 Attachment(s)
Hi to all,
These three PO badges came from the same estate.
Is the centre badge of the WW1 period?
Thanks
Barry

Alex Rice 05-04-21 06:06 AM

Hi Barry
As far as I am aware, the centre badge is an early CPO cap badge, I think they were in use up to WWI. The other two are post 1922 PO badges I think.
Cheers,
Alex

Frank Kelley 05-04-21 08:29 AM

That is a difficult question to actually answer unless you know the identity of it's original owner, but, it does appear to have some age to it, as well as a civil branch gilt crown.


Quote:

Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz (Post 544969)
Hi to all,
These three PO badges came from the same estate.
Is the centre badge of the WW1 period?
Thanks
Barry


nbroadarrowz 05-04-21 09:09 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks for your thoughts. The items came with other WW2 NZ items and I suspect that by WW2 and being NZ, that all badges that looked alike were issued from a box and no one cared about the finer details of these cap badges.
So the badge in question is a CPO cap badge (civil branch)1903-1919 afterwards it was worn by PO. (reference Kit Muster page 50,83,).

This is another Civil branch CPO/PO cap badge that I have. Its construction is very similar to one of the other badges in the previous post.
Thanks
Barry

Alex Rice 06-04-21 05:16 AM

Sorry to disappoint but that badge is a later PO cap badge, not a civil branch CPO. The civil branch CPO, and all pre-wreath CPO badges should have a red jewel in the centre of the crown. I tend to associate the badges with the red embroidered 'cap' inside the crown, instead of velvet, as WWII.

royston 06-04-21 10:27 AM

2 Attachment(s)
The centre badge does look like a 1WW CPOs badge (Civil List), it has the right construction with the broad anchor, which I assume to be gold, and the back definitely looks 1WW The big debating point would be the colour of the centre "jewel" red or blue. If it is blue it could be just in that change over period 1921-22 when the colour of the "jewel" was standardised as blue. Although there is still debate on this forum about whether blue was used in the 1WW as well as red and was standardised in 1921.

nbroadarrowz 06-04-21 10:53 PM

I have read, studied and cross referenced the documents and the debate over red and blue central jewels before.
Unless I am missing something red and blue (central jewels) were both made until the early 1920's and then manufacturers were instructed to get it correct, so after this date only the correct blue (central) jewelled crowns were made.
I have a pre WW1 NAV badge with a central red jewel.
I am happy that the central badge in my first post is that of a pre 1919 CPO(civil branch).
Barry

Frank Kelley 07-04-21 07:12 AM

The central badge in the original post appears to be from a manufacturer who has not added coloured jewels, I would have thought, from the photograph, that the anchor is certainly gold in colour.
I tend to be open minded regarding the central jewel colour on embroidered Tudor crowns, you also encounter many badges, from the various branches, upon caps with a red jewel that post date 1922.


Quote:

Originally Posted by royston (Post 545085)
The centre badge does look like a 1WW CPOs badge (Civil List), it has the right construction with the broad anchor, which I assume to be gold, and the back definitely looks 1WW The big debating point would be the colour of the centre "jewel" red or blue. If it is blue it could be just in that change over period 1921-22 when the colour of the "jewel" was standardised as blue. Although there is still debate on this forum about whether blue was used in the 1WW as well as red and was standardised in 1921.


Alex Rice 08-04-21 06:22 AM

Hi All
The red/blue jewel debate could go on with no definitive answer. There are a few threads going back where the topic is discussed. I have a few early, ie: pre-wreath CPO badges as well as a couple of early wreathed CPO badges, all with red jewels. I would not believe a blue-jeweled badge was pre-1922 unless it had cast iron provenance and I haven't seen one I would consider to be that old. The one common thing I have seen on ALL the ealry CPO badges is that the rope circle has a thick ring on the outer 'rope', and the inner one is narrower. All the later PO badges seem to have rope rings which are the same thickness.
That is one of the pointers I have used to try and date the badges. I don't know if it is right, just my opinion.
Cheers,
Alex

Alex Rice 08-04-21 01:54 PM

9 Attachment(s)
Some of my badges to highlight my point above.

nbroadarrowz 09-04-21 09:02 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Badge comparison.
Same maker, same threaded cushion, different coloured anchors.
To me the colour of the central jewel is a manufacturer's variation as the official colour is blue.
Barry

Alex Rice 10-04-21 06:05 AM

Hi Barry
Thanks for posting. I still, unfortunately, don't consider the left badge a civil branch badge, the crown still has a silver wire 'brow' which should be gold wire as with the civil branch engineering CPO badge which I posted.
Cheers,
Alex

Frank Kelley 18-04-21 07:05 AM

I particularly like your first example with the purple velvet cushion to the reverse of the gilt anchor.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Rice (Post 545321)
Some of my badges to highlight my point above.


cbuehler 22-04-21 11:41 PM

The purple velvet badge was originally dark blue which has changed over time, which is common to velvet.
I have ( and have seen) several bullion badges, not just these CPO, with originally dark blue velvet portions that exhibit this change. I too like this.

CB

Frank Kelley 23-04-21 08:36 AM

From the photograph, I would thought the badge is an Engineering branch example as they wore purple and it looks to be is truly superb condition for its age, the other various civil branch wore just a gilt anchor.


Quote:

Originally Posted by cbuehler (Post 546955)
The purple velvet badge was originally dark blue which has changed over time, which is common to velvet.
I have ( and have seen) several bullion badges, not just these CPO, with originally dark blue velvet portions that exhibit this change. I too like this.

CB



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