QVC Royal Scots Helmet Plate
 

I have obtained a QVC Royal Scots Helmet Plate. It has some issues but the main issue is that the green enamel is gone. Just wondering if anyone has any knowledge about how the central silver section was made and whether the green enamel was inlaid or if it was designed as a disc to be mounted behind the silver plate. A bit rushed for time or I'd post some photos. Will do so when I can.

D.R.,

I am sure a picture would help, this is what it says in the booklet "Home Service Helmet"

P.B.

Thanks that is helpful. I'm adding a couple of pics. An example found online plus a pic of mine disassembled.

DR,

Looking at the picture of the plate you found on line, it looks like the green enamel on that one is on a disc,going by what appear to be radial lines similar to what I have seen on on other badges that had green enamel backing on a disc.It is certainly a lovely looking item.

The difficulty is going to be finding a disc, or having one made for your plate- good luck,worth some perseverance.

P.B.

DR your plate looks like the one I warned members about

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...er=desc&page=2 Caveat Emptor

Well, anything is possible I suppose. However in all my days I have never come across a restrike of this plate, many English regiment officer's plates yes but never the Royal Scots. And I have some restrikes to compare to as well. I'm reasonably certain this is an old plate.

Yes restrikes of this plate do exist, I think the one Malc posted is a good example

DR you are of course entitled to your own opinion, here is why I think yours is wrong.
If it is the same plate as the one I warned about it came from a well know faker of badges, the title scroll is wrong as I have only seen that type on Royal Scots shoulder belt plates.
For yours to be an old plate as you say I would have liked the scroll to say The Lothian Regiment.
Please show a full picture of yours front and back here so we can all see if I'm wrong then please accept my apologies.
Malc

Malc
They had plates with Royal Scots scroll as well as Lothian Regt
Regards
Alan

Hi Alan yes I did know sorry what I ment was the scroll pattern I have only seen on Shoulder belt plates not helmet plates.
Malc

No worries Malcolm one way or the other. It's all about education. I'll be the first to admit I'm still learning.
I did find this pic online of an example that has a similar scroll to the shoulder belt plate. However, for all I know this could be a restrike. If it is or not it has some differences than mine. On mine both the scroll and the central thistle disc are silver. Seems to often be a lot of minor variations.
I wish I was home to consult Wilkinson and Kipling&King.

That picture you have posted is of a very poor quality reproduction.

If yours is like that then its a fake also.

If you show a photo front and back as Malcolm suggests we could be 100% one way or another.

regards

For reference
 

Hi all
Sorry to enter the fray so late, but I have been trying to "dig-up" this pic from the late Sir Hanibal Scicluna collection circa 1974.
As you can see, there is both Lothian and Royal Scots (QVC & KC) shown here. As you say tho' the scroll on the helmet is not the same as on the SBP.
Hope this is of some help with your decision re fake or not d_r. Regards Jeff

Attachment 168140

Well I guess I need to bow to the collective wisdom. It looks like I did indeed get rooked. Not the first time, probably not the last. I guess I'd best learn to check on here first before I buy next time.

DR try contacting the seller and see if they will give a refund.
Malc

Thank you Malcolm, I have done just that. He seems willing to give me a full refund. He claims he purchased it from a reputable dealer as original, but isn't arguing the point.
Does anyone have a picture they could post showing the back of a QVC period helmet plate, so I know what to look for in the future?

I am afraid all mine are mounted in frames so i cant photo the rear, but with Gilt Helmet Plates the fronts are as good an indicator as the rear.

These items used a gilt containing mercury which cannot be reproduced by the fakers of the helmet plates. The process is still possible (overseas) but too expensive for fakes.

It has a unique patina which you will become familiar with with experience when viewing or ideally handling them.

Also these were suberbly made with crisp sharp points and edges. Look at the silver star on your RS plate, its not sharp at all and looks clearly moulded and smooth to touch, a sure fire give away.

The rears should bu dull and not be shiny, the fittings showing signs of wear.

I hope that helps.

regards

A Couple of Pics
 

Hi DR
Just posting these pics which I hope will be of some interest and help to you.
Unfortunately the Royal Scots is just a "blow-up" from my previous post, but the Lothian is a proper close-up with a bit better detail. Hope these are ok for you tho' would like to see a better R.S from any other member if they have one. Regards Jeff

Attachment 168247 Attachment 168248

PS: I note the curious reversal of metals on the centre ornaments when compared to your badge. Was this supposed to distinguish between the 1st & 2nd Battns ?

Good question. I believe I recall reading that the blue or green enamel on the badge distinguished the battalions, but no idea about the metal, or even if this distinction was continued. I don't recall ever seeing blue on the later forage cap badges.

Hi DR
Yes I agree, all officers badges to the Royal Scots after 1881 were green backed. I have never seen a post 1881 helmet plate (or forage cap badge) with a blue backing. However, a closer look at the KC Offs helmet plate does show the reversed metals in the centre ... so this is not just a "fakers folly" but surely has some significance !?

Attachment 168373

[QUOTE=Jeff Mc William;400856]Hi DR
Yes I agree, all officers badges to the Royal Scots after 1881 were green backed. I have never seen a post 1881 helmet plate (or forage cap badge) with a blue backing. However, a closer look at the KC Offs helmet plate does show the reversed metals in the centre ... so this is not just a "fakers folly" but surely has some significance !?

I thought the Royals Scots officers had gone to the Kilmarnock for full-dress by 1902 so I'm perplexed that there even is a kings-crown helmet plate.

R.Scots Kilmarnock
 

Hi again DR
Thanks for the post. Yes, I guess it may be a bit surprising to discover a R.Scots KC helmet Plate considering the circumstances you mention, and they are undoubtedly rare items. But, at the risk of seeming pedantic, the change to the Kilmarnock bonnet was in fact made in August 1903.(see attachment)
I am not quite sure when the KC plates were authorized but I guess late 1901 or early 1902, which would have given it a life of at least a year ... so, yes rare.
However, the attached photo of Officers c.1904 shows the central figure (the CO ?) still wearing the helmet, so perhaps it continued in use for some functions a little longer. ??
Anyway, I hope the attached pics are of some interest and use to you. Regards. Jeff

Attachment 168415 Attachment 168416

Attachment 168417

Yes of great interest. Thanks very much Jeff.

Recent acquisitions
 

With a little more wisdom (hopefully) and experience I've recently acquired an authentic helmet plate, as well as a few other Royal Scots insignia. Sorry the picture quality is not top notch. I'd love to acquire one of the original home service helmet plates that I think date to 1878 or 1879 with the blue enamel and St. Andrew badge but they must be extremely rare.