White metal SAS badge
 

Gents, can anyone confirm my suspicions that the attached is an officers collar badge with the Gilt over lays missing - hence the holes?

Any other observations welcome chaps.

Many thanks

Bess

I would go along with that.

Marc

Reversed Colour SAS Collars
 

I'd agree with Marc on that.

There are certainly examples of reversed colour collars with the flames and motto in silver and Excalibur in gold.

I have attached images of a pair of these that I have been told were worn by 21 SAS at the Golden Jubilee of the TA in 1958. No additional verification of that but it's an interesting suggestion to research further. They are of two piece riveted construction, with copper lugs, similar to the more conventional colour collars.

I have also attached an image of a single cast example. Possibly silver, although not marked, with Excalibur picked out in gilt. Does anyone have any additional information please?

Just to round things off, I've also attached an image of an all white metal cap badge (with brass slider). I think the slider is a good 'un, but much less sure about the badge soldered to the front! The quality of the scroll and motto lettering is poor. It's an unusual pattern however as it's one piece construction and all white metal. The only possibility I can think of, if original, is that it was worn on the 23 SAS field service cap.

I must also post some examples of my all brass SAS cap badges to your brass badge thread, when time permits, as I have a few interesting ones...

Best regards,

Graham

Jones & Jason Ltd mark is fake. The exact same arial font is seen on a multitude of duff badges with numerous obscure and even bogus manufacturers and outfitters names.

Thank you Graham

Most modern maker marked genuine badges use a similar san serif font and from a typographical perspective only the kerning varies. Some makers use wider spacing than others. IMO the presence of san serif font on the slider is not a reliable indicator that a badge is fake.

I stand by my comment that the slider is good as it's thick and very hard brass. The jury is out on the maker mark given the limited evidence for Jones & Jason as a badge manufacturer. There are a few threads regarding this on the Forum. There does seem to be some evidence that they manufactured badges for a while, in Birmingham, post WWII. The most common suspect marks on SAS and Parachute Regiment beret badges, other than anodised, seem to be the 15mm Gaunt with a dot (definitely one to avoid in my opinion), JR Gaunt, Jones & Jason, Smith and Wright, Grove Manufacturing and Marples & Beasley. I believe it's a matter of record that genuine brass sliders from some of the above makers have been purchased in bulk and creatively applied to fake badges.

For the record, I believe the SAS white metal beret badge illustrated is a fake, albeit a not particularly common one. In addition to the previously mentioned flaws, the slider is not in the right place and the brazing looks a little fresh.

Graham

It’s fake. The stable that mark is from are fakes. The style of lettering and always lacking full stops ‘.’ and underscores ‘_’ are indicative.

A strong brass slider does not a good badge (or good slider) make unfortunately.

Be interested to hear what evidence you have for Marples & Beasley making OR metal badges or marking brass sliders? Genuine Grove marks have a significantly different font to these fakes and has a full stop. Again please feel free to show a metal Smith and Wright marked brass slider with lettering of this style - I’ve never seen one.

Fake die Para and Warks from MM catalogue. Also the SAS badge where your example will have come from.

I’m yet to see any evidence a brass or WM badge of this type was ever worn. MM and the die has produced many thousands of repros. If the die was ever original and used 99.9999% of these badges are reproduction. Certainly I would not touch one without provenance and even then it would have to be very water tight.

Good information on MM Luke, thank you and I agree the Para Reg example is completely fake and was never worn. (It did, however, find its way onto vintage regimental presentational items such as tankards) I based my original comment regarding the slider of the SAS badge originally illustrated on the fact that it appears to be a 'proper' slider compared with the ones used on many of the fake badges. Original slider stock, from closed companies could be picked up very cheaply and stamped with any maker's name which saved the fakers from having to re-invent the wheel thereby reducing cost. That is why some fake sliders are so flimsy but others are very solid. Unlike the most common pattern of fake Para Reg beret badge, there are a number of suspect dies for (non anodised) SAS metal beret badges and each has its own distinctive flaws.

Just to clarify, my stance from the outset has been that the original white metal SAS beret badge at the start of the thread and the majority of maker marked brass slider ORs Parachute Regiment beret badges are fakes.

I also didn't mention that the reason maker marks are traditionally san-serif font (Arial or similar) is that serifs would wear excessively or even break off during the stamping process due to their fine detail.

As requested, I have pulled examples of most of the badges discussed, including Smith and Wright, from my 'Little Shop of Horrors' collection. This is a very economical branch of the hobby as most people donate for free out of their scrap box :)

The exception is Marples & Beasley and I have an original post War KC Parachute Regiment ORs beret badge with a maker marked brass slider. I don't think the slider had been added to an original badge, so, unless the slider has been stamped to try and increase the apparent rarity of an original badge, this may be an example of the elusive Marples & Beasley ORs badge.

The only catch is that I don't have an image of it (or some of the fake maker marked sliders) to hand so need to photograph them.

I will post images as soon as I can and then everyone can judge for themselves.

In tandem, returning to the original topic, does anyone have any comments on, or different examples of, silver/reversed colour SAS collars please?

Graham

Makers Marks on Para and SAS Beret Badge Sliders
 

Apologies for the slight delay as it's taken a little while to locate the badges and get some reasonably clear images together.

I've attached an image of three makers' marks believed to be fake. Interestingly they are all different. The Grove font is larger while the Smith & Wright and Jones and Jason marks have different kerning. This potentially indicates that they originated at different times and/or from different sources. The Grove and Smith and Wright sliders are as soft as butter while, as previously noted, the Jones and Jason example is very hard brass. Normally, I would caution against dismissing different variations of makers' marks out of hand, if they don't match known examples, but on this occasion, given the badges they have frequently appeared on, it's fairly safe to assume they are dud.

The Marples & Beasley marked Para Reg beret badge is more interesting and I have attached a number of images of it. Received wisdom is that M&B produced mainly Officers' badges at the time and ORs' examples (if indeed they were made) were not marked on the slider. (This obviously pre-dates the later anodised badges which were stamped)

The only other M&B mark I have from a similar era is on one of their silver plated OCA button back lapel badges. I have attached images of this although they aren't particularly clear due to the location of the mark and the patina on the badge. The mark is embossed on the casting, rather than de-bossed by stamping, and is slightly asymmetrical with the 'B' of 'BIRMINGHAM' under the 'P' of 'MARPLES' and the second 'M' of 'BIRMINGHAM' under the 'SL' of 'BEASLEY'.

Having examined the M&B marked Para Reg beret badge again (including under very strong magnification) I believe it is a good pattern and original. The hard brass slider shows no signs of having been replaced and the solder work is of a very high standard. There is nothing to indicate that it has been reworked in any way. The M&B mark doesn't appear to have been added later. Notwithstanding this, it could be a high class forgery. I can't obviously say for certain it's an elusive original M&B marked ORs' badge but I've had it over 20 years and it's certainly a plausible candidate. Whether it will survive Alan O's keen scrutiny is another matter :)

Genuine maker marked KC ORs' Para Reg beret badges are thin on the ground but an example with good antecedents is the Gaunt factory conversion of a batch of badges from lugs to sliders. You can see the original position of the lugs in the images. These have featured on the Forum previously and I have attached images of my example.

Graham

That sort with the crossed over rigging, deep chunky centre and fat wings has been discussed on the forum before and I’ve seen them sold as copies. I believe them to be a lesser seen repro and am not seeking one for my own collection.

This one appearing with a Marples & Beasley slider doesn’t change that opinion but strengthens it.

The question would be out all the many repros with like Marples & Beasley marked sliders on them, why is this Para one real? The mark is the same as this supposedly WW1 1916 all GM issue 21st Lancers which is an out and out fake. Note the very wide Y.

I don’t doubt your OCA badge is real but comparing an embossed mark on a lapel badge with a stamped mark on a slider is for me apples and oranges.

Also I’m afraid a hard brass slider and good braze job doesn’t equal a genuine badge.

Those Grove, Smith & Wright and Jones & Jason marks shown are all fakes of that I am 100% sure. Even from the cut down pic I can tell the Grove slider is on a common Para fake with the angular crown.

I own a slidered Gaunt Para which is not a conversion https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...7&postcount=15

Without reading all that long post, the Bedford/Milton Keynes fair has been awash with jason&jones along with J&Co, WD^, Suttle and other maker marked fake badges for a number of years

Is there conclusive evidence that this pattern is a fake? You are right that the pattern itself has been copied and much poorer quality examples exist.

I have several examples, with lugs and unmarked sliders and they all appear to have the same die flaws. I've documented these for future reference as I'm not certain this has been done previously on the forum.(See attached)

The badges themselves are thick and well struck, with good detail front and rear, and the feathers have a very well defined raised lip on the bottom edge. (Clearer pics of both types attached)

I have had all mine many years and only paid nominal sums for them. If fake I would say they are fairly vintage.

They are definitely a cut above the pointy wing tip/die flaw/square feather variants.

Hopefully this will be the last time I mention hard sliders :) Agree that hard sliders and good metalworking do not equal an original badge. The point I was making (not very well) was that if certain badges do not have these, the chances are they've fallen at the first hurdle. You only have to look at the Smith & Wright example, in the fake marks pic in post #10, which is appalling.

Graham

There was always one particular dealer at the International at the NEC who used to sell a lot of these. Mainly Para, SAS, AAC & GPR. Once in a while he'd surpass himself and offer an LRDG with WD stamped slider :eek:

This one sold very quickly tonight on eBay. Probably snapped up by the usual suspects, eBay item 274447352486 (unsure how to add the link).

The badge is from the same die as the Marples & Beasley slidered badge above.

This one does nothing to change my opinion on these very modern massive dustbin lid footed loops. Not the sort that were used in the 1950s. Very 1970s or after in my belief.

Additionally stylistically the lion looks wrong and an uncomfortable shape, it reminds be a bit of the Devon RFA fakes and a couple others where the repro-ers got these wrong.