Kent Volunteer Fencibles - E.K.V.R.
 

Hopefully some of you may find this an interesting photographic postcard showing a Volunteer Kent Unit.

Having studied the cap badges I believe them to be for the Kent Volunteer Fencibles however the reverse of the card details the Unit as B Company, No 1 Platoon, E.K.V.R. (East Kent Volunteer Reserve?)

Although its difficult to fully make it out the bass drum bears the Horse of Kent within a circlet with 'M.K.B.' on it, any suggestions welcome re identification and deciphering the other details?

The two Officers and the Warrant Officer wear different cap badges which I have not yet positively identified.

The clothing of the young boys seated at the front is also quite interesting in that one wears a full uniform matching that of the adults, the lad second from the right wears a very small Kent Horse style cap badge and the boy second from the left wears an unidentified lapel badge.

The light machine gun at the front is I believe a Hotchkiss M1909 model.

An interesting image and would welcome any observations .

Regards, Simon.

Unsure why the last image is in portrait and not landscape, apologies.

Simon.

Love the inscription: ‘I have just spotted an aeroplane.’

Wonderful.

JT

Great photo, Simon.

A couple of the chaps are wearing Sgt. chevrons. To the best of my knowledge, this was not permitted within the VTC:

'The accepted military ranks and titles will not be used or recognised, and no uniform is to be worn except where necessary for training.' *

Attachment 269396

As we know, the VTC had their own cuff lace rank system too:

Attachment 269395

Also, the drum appears to say '8th' (possibly), before the MKB, and 'Coy' after it. Just an added observation:

Attachment 269398

The buttons appear to be black 'rifles' buttons, but could equally be the so-called 'football' buttons often seen worn on the VTC uniform.

Attachment 269399

Thanks for sharing.

JT


* Source: 'Uniforms of the Volunteers 1914-19', The Journal of the Society for Army Historical research, Autumn 1938, Vol.17, No.67, pp. 163-170.

I don't recognise the LMG but that would make it WW1 era: East Kent Volunteer Regiment is a contender for EKVR rather than Reserves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchk...kiss_M1909.png

There you go. The LMG is French so I would suggest the photo must be 1915-16.

JT and Alan,

Many thanks for your observations, very interesting. 8th M.K.B. Company throws up nothing obvious with a Web search or within my limited reference Library however a good starting point for future research.

I do enjoy these group photographs and the research potential they provide.

Simon.

Simon

I don't think that there is any doubt they are VTC from the details in the photo. The VTCs are not well recorded because they were semi-official at best and being self-funded volunteers had a lot of variance in their dress. The French MG is an oddity and you do wonder where they got it from.

Alan

Alan,

I agree, wonder where they obtained such a weapon and obviously proud to show off their Unit's new found firepower with it displayed front and centre of the group.

Simon.

Just wondering if it could be late-1916 around the transitional period from VTC to VF?

At that time the War Office announced that officers and other ranks were now to wear the same badges of rank as those worn by the Regular Army, though all ranks were to wear the Royal Arms as their cap badge.

It’s an interesting subject.

JT

Quite possibly. I have read a thesis on the VTC in the library at JSCSC at Shrivenham. It was superbly researched and recorded the problem of uniforms being changed over in 1916 without adequate funding. The VTC bought their own (not khaki as they were forbidden to wear it as VTC) in 1915 and some resorted to dying their uniforms when they moved to VB status. The officers are in khaki which suggest you are exactly right in your date.

Late 1916 or later would also explain the Army ranks being worn.

I believe we had some .303 Hotchkiss machine guns pretty early in WW1, I think I remember they were intended for Cavalry use but were then issued to Army Cyclists and fitted in some tanks?

Rob

First produced in France in 1914 then :


.

40,000 produced in Coventry and I'm sure these are also used in the early takns along with Lewis guns

I doubt that the average V.T.C. would have their own band and I wonder if a local band enlisted as a unit and became the 8th Mid Kent Band Coy, or something similar.

The lower word on the drum obviously has some significance and I wonder if it might be the name of the town that the band came from or were based in.

Unfortunately it is almost impossible to make out what the word is.

Possibly an exception but...

Attachment 269411

JT

Well, that is something that I have learnt today. There must have been far more brass bands in existence then than there are today and therefore much easier to form one for a V.T.C. regiment. Probably very useful for recruitment purposes too.

Simon,

This could well be an exception. The City of London National Guard was, I would imagine, not short of a bob or two. I would think their resources stretched a tad further then you average VTC unit. Then again, info about this kind of thing seems so scarce; it's not so easy to gauge.

JT

Without wanting to go too off-topic, here are a couple of interesting snippets on the subject (both from 'Wright & Rounds Brass Band News' Liverpool, Feb & Nov 1916):

Attachment 269413Attachment 269414

Lovely picture, and lots of good suggestions...

To add some from my own research, and also quoting from Mike Obborne's brilliant "Grandad's Army":

In June 1916, the Kent Volunteer Regiment organised 48 corps into 12 Battalions, listed in GA's appendices. Some of these were KVR and some were EKVR, but the numbering followed no particular geographic pattern. This 1916 date ties in with other observations on dating the picture.

The 8th (Weald & Headcorn) Battalion included Ashford, Cranbrook, Goudhurst and Hawkhurst corps. As far as I can make out, the bottom scroll on the drum says Cranbrook. There is no record of a specific Cranbrook VTC, but Kent organised quite early under the KVF badge, so only two of the 48 corps had a different badge, and only six had a different buttonhole badge. So, not a surprise...

To confuse matters slightly, GA cites two "B Companies": 3rd Btn (Tonbridge) in the KVR, where Tonbridge is B Company; 4th Btn (Thanet & Broadstairs) in the EKVR, where Ramsgate is B Company. Could the writing on the back be alluding to the writer's own company, rather that the picture?

I can't offer any explanation of the "M" at this time, but will investigate further.

Great thread, by the way. Right up my street!

Very best regards,

Tim

Tim,

Many thanks for that and to all the other Members who have commented so far on this thread. The 'M' on the drum is interesting and hopefully may be identified in the future.

Regards, Simon.

Just to confuse things a bit more ! :confused:

A WW1 Armistice Exibition by Frittenden Historical Society has the same photo/postcard but it is labelled :

https://www.frittendenarmistice.co.u.../artefacts.php

The photo/postcard appears to have possibly been mislabelled or wrongly attributed but perhaps if you contact the museum there may be more information available.

http://www.cranbrookmuseum.org/contacts.html

.

Thought this might be of interest; a few old Fencibles having their photo taken in the Garden of England, one bright day long ago:

Attachment 269450

Can't quite make out the officer's unit/cap & collar badges:

Attachment 269451

And we appear to have a few marksmen present too, as denoted by the cloth sleeve badges:

Attachment 269452Attachment 269453Attachment 269454

Attachment 269456Attachment 269455

All good men and true.

Attachment 269458Attachment 269460Attachment 269461Attachment 269463

JT

This is a great thread.
Is the Officer Essex Regiment?
Chris

Wot, an Essex boy goin' sahf o' the rivva? :eek:

Actually, what are these Regular Army officers doing there with the VTC? Are they keeping an eye on them to make sure they're behaving themselves and not getting delusions of grandeur thinking they're real Army, or are they maybe on like an exchange weekend, with the VTC Company Commandant in a swap, having his picture taken somewhere in a support trench in Flanders, up to his knees in mud and drinking petrol-flavoured, bomb-crater water from a boot?

Mike,

Many thanks for the links, will send an email and see if anything further comes to light.

Simon.

JT,

Great photographs, another one here I picked up some time ago. Nice image with the two armbands and the Central Association VTC badge.

Simon

Superb photo, Simon.

So this bloke is not only wearing the ‘George’s Wrecks’ brassard, but appears also to have attested under the Derby Scheme?

He’s suspended in a kind of paradoxical, social no man’s land on home turf… on the one hand (or arm) he’s displaying with his grey (khaki?) Derby Scheme brassard that he has been officially recognised as eligible and willing to fight, and on the other arm his red Georgius Rex armlet is telling the world he is not to be mistaken for a real soldier.

Attachment 269485

There’s a fascinating article by Laura Ugolini titled ‘The Illicit Consumption of Military Uniforms in Britain, 1914-1918’, wherein she explores the motives behind the need for many people at that time to assert their patriotic identities through the acquisition and donning of military garments and accoutrements. An absolutely fascinating read.

JT

The Adjutant and Medical Officer were from the Territorial Force.
My great Grandfather was an Officer in the Yorkshire Dragoons, after a time in France he returned to help with the training of 3/1 Yorkshire Dragoons.
In 1917 he became Adjutant of the 9th West Riding Volunteers, he's on the far right of the photo the medical Officer is back row, 3rd from left.
The rest of the officers wear the OSD Royal Arms cap badge.
Hope this is of interest.
Chris

Chris,

That is absolutely fantastic, and, no doubt, a priceless treasure. Thanks for posting.

The 9th West Riding Volunteers were not part of the Volunteer Force, right? Were they New Army?

JT

Simon,

Looks as though you and Graham have a photo of the same chap:

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...3&postcount=29

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...0&postcount=17

Attachment 269562

JT

What are the odds of that occurring? Assuming you are both holding an original image?

Tim

JT,

Graham and I noticed this on the GWF when I posted my card. The Lad must have been proud of his Service and wanted to show his friends and family I imagine.

Simon.

Pretty slim, eh?

Excellent. Is there any inscription/info on the reverse of either?

JT

I would imagine that photographers took a number of photos/poses during a sitting and the 'subject' would be able to choose which ones they wanted and how many copies.

.

Glad you liked the photo, it is indeed a treasure.
Yes, they were Volunteer Force, started as 9th (Huddersfield) Bn Volunteer Training Corps, then became part of the West Riding Volunteer Regiment, then on formation of the Volunteer Force became the 2nd Volunteer Battalion Duke of Wellingtons (West Riding) Regiment.
Disbanded 1919, I think
Chris

Thanks for this.

Did your gt. grandfather remain with the VF until its disbandment in 1920? (I believe the motor battalions were retained until 1921).

JT

No, he left in around July 1919, I do have the exact date, I haven't got his file at home at the moment.
He had a long career, joined the 5th Dragoon Guards in 1891, transferred to the 3rd Dragoon Guards in 1895, Boer War 1901, became a PSI SSM to the Yorkshire Dragoons in 1910, RSM Yorkshire Dragoons 1914, commissioned into the Yorkshire Dragoons 1914, Adjutant 9 WRV Regt 1917, still badges Yorkshire Dragoons, left in1919 as a Captain.
Chris