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ledfut 03-12-09 04:00 PM

Correct shoulder title location?
 
Is there a "correct" placement for WW2 cloth shoulder titles on the battle dress. I wish to have some PPCLI shoulder titles sewn on to a battle dress for a display I am working on. I have seen some shoulder titles sewn right at the shoulder seam, and I have seen others as much as a 1/2 inch below the seam. Is there a "correct" placement? Or did it vary depending on the individual soldier? I am having difficulty finding a clear picture of a WW2 era PPCLI battle dress for reference.

wright241 03-12-09 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ledfut (Post 53469)
Is there a "correct" placement for WW2 cloth shoulder titles on the battle dress. I wish to have some PPCLI shoulder titles sewn on to a battle dress for a display I am working on. I have seen some shoulder titles sewn right at the shoulder seam, and I have seen others as much as a 1/2 inch below the seam. Is there a "correct" placement? Or did it vary depending on the individual soldier? I am having difficulty finding a clear picture of a WW2 era PPCLI battle dress for reference.

I have a (UK) Parachute Regiment WWII BD and the titles are 1 to 2mm away from the seam. On a post WWII officers Canadian Signal corps BD they are 15mm below the seam. david

Voltigeur 03-12-09 04:46 PM

Hi ledfut, maybe this help a bit. Check the left shoulder where the title is placed, as for the beard, well I don't think it was "standard" for the Patricias unless maybe in the pioneer platoon.
Jo

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...hki39aplh10kh3

Another pic;
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...hki39aplh10kh3

Recce 03-12-09 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ledfut (Post 53469)
Is there a "correct" placement for WW2 cloth shoulder titles on the battle dress. I wish to have some PPCLI shoulder titles sewn on to a battle dress for a display I am working on. I have seen some shoulder titles sewn right at the shoulder seam, and I have seen others as much as a 1/2 inch below the seam. Is there a "correct" placement? Or did it vary depending on the individual soldier? I am having difficulty finding a clear picture of a WW2 era PPCLI battle dress for reference.

I No there's a proper space requirement, I wore them at 1" spacing! thats from 77 I Think. then the rank all have a proper requirement Spacing from each other.

Slip-On Shoulder Titles 1939-1945

Regulations at the start of the Second World War forbade the wear of any kind of insignia, save slip on shoulder titles. These titles were adopted by some of the overseas units of the Canadian Army. In 1941, the overseas units began to wear embroidered shoulder titles, and the slip-ons were, officially, relegated to Reserve units in Canada only. The slip-on titles came to be produced in Khaki Drill material as well.

The slip-ons were worn on Battle Dress, on each shoulder strap. Officers did not wear them as it would have obscured the rank insignia, though some officers appear to have worn them sewn to the upper sleeve.

The slip-ons appeared in two styles, a wide style (Canadian production) and a narrow style (English construction) and were either attached by means of two cloth loops sewn to the back (the wider Canadian style), or else a cloth sleeve.


Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps title, narrow style with cloth sleeve attachment.



Double-loop attachments on the wide style Canadian version..

Recce 03-12-09 05:02 PM

Metal Shoulder Titles 1939-1945

During the interwar years, Service Dress was the main uniform of the Canadian soldier. All units adopted distinctive metal shoulder titles which were worn on this uniform. The design of these badges was set down by General Orders. Rifle regiments commonly wore blackened badges, other units wore brass for the most part, though some regiments had white metal. Officers badges were generally identical to their men's, though in some cases sterling silver or gilt versions were either adopted by all the officers, or purchased privately by individuals.

In the wake of the 1920 re-organization of Canada's land forces, regulations forbade shoulder titles from having numerals, and demanded that a bar had to appear at both top and bottom of the title.

The page on Special Distinctions on this website provides an account of the special oak leaf shaped shoulder badges adopted by the Canadian Scottish Regiment (1st Battalion only), Calgary Highlanders, and Winnipeg Light Infantry.

In the Second World War, metal shoulder titles were forbidden from use on Battle Dress, though some units ignored this restriction in the early days of the war, before the cloth slip on shoulder titles were adopted.

Once Battle Dress was adopted, the metal shoulder titles ceased to be relevant to most Other Ranks, though officers continued to wear them on their Service Dress and Khaki Drill jackets, which were privately purchased by them.

Midway through the war, as a conservation measure, all Canadian soldiers who were wearing metal shoulder titles were ordered to adopt generic CANADA badges rather than distinctive unit titles. There was some resistance to this and unit badges were probably retained as far as possible, with permission being given to "wear out" the older unit badges.

Recce 03-12-09 05:18 PM

5 Attachment(s)
This artical and the Pictures where taken from http://canadiansoldiers.com/uniforms/uniform.htm

Dress
After the Second World War, several variations to the Battle Dress blouse were made, and by the Korean War the 1949 Pattern became the standard. This pattern remained on inventory, unchanged, until replaced for field dress with the Combat Uniform. It was retained as a dress uniform, especially in Reserve units, until replaced by the Canadian Forces uniform (CF Green) during the late 1960s and early 1970s.

The most visible change to the 1949 Pattern blouse was the addition of an open collar. Rank insignia for Other Ranks was reduced in size on the postwar BD, and the coat of arms for Warrant Officer Class I was changed from the British Royal Arms to the coat of arms of Canada.



Battle Dress Blouse Second Picture

By September 1939, Canada had been in the process of approving the new British Battle Dress uniform for wear by Canadians. The blouse was a departure from the uniforms worn by most of the world's armies; cut short at the waist, the garment was designed with practicality in mind. By 1941, Battle Dress had been issued to the entire overseas army, and it was to be the uniform of the army in Canada as well, except when replaced by summer summer dress. Battle Dress, in its final (1949) form, would be a standard garment of issue until the 1970s.

Collar: Closed fall collar

Front Closure: 4 or 5 button fly front. A cloth waist belt was also sewn in at the waist, and secured closed by a buckle sewn to the lower right waistband.

Pockets: Two breast pockets, box pleated, with scalloped flaps secured by buttons.

Cuffs: Vented cuffs, secured by hidden buttons.

The wear of Battle Dress was highly modified during the war; a detailed listing of Battle Dress variants and regulations regarding the wear of Battle Dress will be found in the webmaster's upcoming book Dressed to Kill, to be released by Service Publications. 1945 to Unification


1949 Pattern Battle Dress # 3rd Picture
After the Second World War, several variations to the Battle Dress blouse were made, and by the Korean War the 1949 Pattern became the standard. This pattern remained on inventory, unchanged, until replaced for field dress with the Combat Uniform. It was retained as a dress uniform, especially in Reserve units, until replaced by the Canadian Forces uniform (CF Green) during the late 1960s and early 1970s.

The most visible change to the 1949 Pattern blouse was the addition of an open collar. Rank insignia for Other Ranks was reduced in size on the postwar BD, and the coat of arms for Warrant Officer Class I was changed from the British Royal Arms to the coat of arms of Canada



4th Picture
Khaki Drill Jacket (Canadian Pattern)
A Canadian pattern of Khaki Drill Jacket was introduced during the war; it was a departure from earlier uniforms in that it had an open collar design, allowing the wear of a shirt and tie underneath - a distinction previously not permitted for Other Ranks. This Canadian Pattern KD was not worn in Europe; Canadian troops serving in the Mediterranean wore British pattern KD clothing, and those in Britain and the Continent did not wear Khaki Drill at all.


Collar: Open collar

Front Closure: 4 button front. A cloth waist belt was also worn with this uniform in the absence of other types of belts (i.e. if for a parade 1937 pattern web belts with bayonets and frogs were worn, the cloth belt would not be worn.) Some of these jackets had cloth belts permanently attached. There are also variations such as cloth belt loops, or eyelets to allow the wearing of belt hooks.

Shoulder straps: Some variants seem to have been made with shoulder straps, some without.

Pockets: Two breast pockets, box pleated, with scalloped flaps secured by buttons, two flapped hip pockets.

Cuffs: Plain cuffs.

Scottish/Highland Pattern: These jackets were intended to be worn with either khaki drill trousers, or shorts, and were probably not often cutaway to accommodate the kilt.


5th Picture
Combat Dress

During the 1960s, lightweight nylon-based Combat Dress began to replace the denim Bush Dress; it remained on inventory into the 21st Century. It was a monochrome olive coloured combat uniform. A tan variant was created for desert use, and worn on operations in Somalia in the 1990s by the Airborne Regiment battle group deployed there. The shirt had angled pockets to accommodate the magazine of the FN C1 assault rifle; cargo pockets were attached to the outer leg of the trousers. A field jacket similar in design to the combat shirt was produced in heavy denim, with a detachable quilted liner.

Bill A 03-12-09 06:10 PM

For WW2 cloth shoulder titles, the placement was to be as high on the arm, up to the shoulder seam if possible. For some units this was nigh on impossible. You couldn't physically sew the title on the tunic in that location and have it look half decent.
The tunics in my collection vary. GGHG, is nearly up to the seam, maybe 1/4 in below, Ontario Regiment, about 1 in below the seam, and Canadian Para Bn, 1/2 in below. I have an RCR tunic, post war with the title on the seam.

Bill A 03-12-09 06:12 PM

Sorry, missed Jo's comment about the PPCLI bearded soldier. The members of the pioneer platoons were allowed the privilege of wearing whiskers. This may explain his hairy face.

Voltigeur 03-12-09 06:50 PM

I forgot to mention the way the cap badge is worn on the beret. I remember some of our British colleagues having a fit over the way the modern Brit soldier is wearing his cap badge over the left ear nowadays......:D

Jo.

edstorey 03-12-09 09:48 PM

Credit Your Sources Please
 
I believe the images of the various uniforms were originally posted on canadiansoldier.com especially as the Great War SD Jacket and the WWII KD Jacket are from my collection and I took the images.

It is nice to se the iamges being used, but I think crediting the source of these images would have been appropriate.

Bill A 03-12-09 10:46 PM

Thanks Ed. A good reminder for all, if you are using (cutting and pasting, quoting, etc) material it should be referenced. Better still, permission to use the material should be sought. People who have created the material are due their credit. And it can save a lot of headaches.

ledfut 03-12-09 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill A (Post 53486)
For WW2 cloth shoulder titles, the placement was to be as high on the arm, up to the shoulder seam if possible. For some units this was nigh on impossible. You couldn't physically sew the title on the tunic in that location and have it look half decent.
The tunics in my collection vary. GGHG, is nearly up to the seam, maybe 1/4 in below, Ontario Regiment, about 1 in below the seam, and Canadian Para Bn, 1/2 in below. I have an RCR tunic, post war with the title on the seam.

This is what I suspected. I believe I read somewhere ("Dressed to Kill" perhaps?) that the shoulder title was to be right at the shoulder seam. Many of the titles had the appropriate curve in their shape to make this possible, but others just didn't look right there. My guess is that many soldiers took some artistic liberty and placed the titles where they felt they looked the best.

ledfut 03-12-09 11:14 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltigeur (Post 53475)
Hi ledfut, maybe this help a bit. Check the left shoulder where the title is placed, as for the beard, well I don't think it was "standard" for the Patricias unless maybe in the pioneer platoon.
Jo

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...hki39aplh10kh3

Another pic;
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...hki39aplh10kh3

Thanks. I already have both of those pictures, but I was having trouble determining the position from either of them.

To the best of my eyesight, it looks like the PPCLI title is very close to the seam (perpaps a 1/4 inch or less) in the first picture. It is harder to tell in the second picture. It appears like the soldier is wearing some type of jerkin over his battle dress. Initially, it looked to me like the flash is right on the shoulder tab, but I think the title is actually a little bit further down from the seam (which is obscured by the armhole of the jerkin) than in the first picture.

I don't think my PPCLI shoulder titles have the proper shape to go exactly at the seam, but I will try to place them as close as I can. I think they will look best if I place them in a similar position to the Seaforth titles pictured below:

ledfut 05-12-09 05:25 AM

2 Attachment(s)
I had the patches sewn on last evening. I am very happy with the way the finished product looks. I used "Dressed to Kill" to find the specs for the location of the sergeant stripes, service chevrons (on opposite sleeve - not pictured), and formation patches. I used authentic WW2 dark drab linen thread and had the seamstress try to make the stitching look as authentic as possible (based on numerous pictures).

ledfut 05-12-09 06:11 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Some more...


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