Info needed on Monmouthshire badges.
 

Can anyone tell me how to recognize an original 1s Bn. of the Monmouthshire cap badge,KK1770. Was it worn only during 1stWW? Or,were KK17769 and KK1777 ever worn? I know :rolleyes: that KK1769 was worn during 2ndWW,right? Any morsel of information will be appreciated.
Thanks and cheers.
Jo

This is my badge. Made by FN and is what I understand to be the standard 1st Bn. Monmouths prior to 1922. I seem to recall something that it may have been worn by another Batallion as well?

CB

I posed a related issue on another thread, but got no responses, so I'll repeat it here: I was under the (probably mistaken) impression that the 2nd Monmouths wore the plain dragon, but that the 1st wore a more elaborate one. I refer members to the photo at bottom lefthand side of this site:
http://www.abijess.freeserve.co.uk/
Can someone please clarify things for me too?

As I understand it the 1st Bn wore the w/m plain dragon badge from 1908-1922 when then adopted the more elaborate badge which included the wreath with battlehonours surround. K&K 1770. In response to the first question this badge was not worn in WW1 but was a post war design.

The 2nd-4th Bns wore the brass dragon (K&K 1769) for the duration of their existance.

There is some differnce of views amongst authors as to whether the 1st Bn wore the plain brass one prior to 1920. It is possible that the w/m badge was for walking out or parade dress uniforms and all 4 Bns wore the brass badge in khaki. Gaylor states that the w/m plain dragon badge was unique to the 1st Bn but other authors are not so specific.

The Officers of the 2nd and 3rd Bns wore different badges to the ORs with regtl title scrolls (K&K 1777) - there were no OR versions of this badge despite the amount of fakes about. The OR ones on ebay are fantasy badges.

Alan

Think I get it.
 

Hello Alan,I think I get your explanation.So,during 2ndWW the OR's wore the brass dragon only. As I'm only interested in OR's badges, I take it also that the informations given in this website are correct?? (check at near bottom of page about the badges).
http://www.3rdbattmons.co.uk/16.html

Also,just found, additional info in this pic of CSM Evan Davies,3rd Monmouthshire (KIA,1944,Holland).
http://www.rrw.org.uk/images/Davies,-E-T.jpg

Thanks and cheers
Jo

[QUOTE=Voltigeur;24645]Hello Alan,I think I get your explanation.So,during 2ndWW the OR's wore the brass dragon only. The 2nd Bn, 3rd Bn and Home Guard wore the brass badge but the 1st bn ORs kept the wreath badge in silver.

As I'm only interested in OR's badges, I take it also that the informations given in this website are correct?? (check at near bottom of page about the badges). Not quite right as it shows the Officers scroll badges as ORs. As your link shows the 3rd bn ORs were still wearing the plain dragon in WW2 despite what the website says.
http://www.3rdbattmons.co.uk/16.html

Hope this is clearer.
Alan

Please forgive me, but still a little confused here. So just what Batallion and era would my brass badge be for?

CB

The all brass one was worn from 1908-46 by the 2nd Bn. It was also worn from 1908 by the 3rd and 4th Bns but they did not last as long with the post war reductions in TF.

The 1st Bn MAY have worn the all brass badge in khaki from 1908-22 but the jury is out on whether they did or exclusively wore the w/m one.

The FN Bham mark was certainly in use in WW2.

Alan

Thanks a million Alan. Much appreciated.
Cheers
Jo

Alan,
Where are you picking up on a 4th Battn? All our records only refer to the 3 TF Battns.
As for what was worn, as far as has been identified to date all three battalions wore the standard brass dragon on service dress.
I have a contact in Newport who has done extensive research on this subject and I will ask him to provide me with the dates etc.
I can confirm however that Alan is quite correct with regard ro the 2nd and 3rd Battn patterns, these were only worn by Officers and should only be found in bronze or silver versions, all others being a fantasy.
Cord bosses were also worn by the Officers.
Will post a few when I get a chance.
Cofion,
Kevin

Many thanks to Alan et al for the information -- I think I've got things cleared up now!:)
BTW, Kevin, E.A. James' book on WW1 regts (p. 112) lists a 4th Monmouths, which was formed in 1917 from the 48th Provisional Bn (made up of Home Service Monmouth and Hereford personnel) and which remained on home service.

Gaylor states that the 1st Bn is in all w/m.

I have one myself which was collected by my grandfather in Cardiff so they definately existed and are not a modern phenomenon.

As lettman staes the 4th Bn was a WW1 creation.

Alan

Alan,
Sorry, I should have made it clear. The 1st Battn did wear a white metal dragon (I also have a good wm example), but also wore the brass metal dragon in common with the other two battn's on service dress.
Kevin

Kevin,

Thanks for confirming that. Was the w/m one one for Blues or 'walking out'?

Alan

Just as an aside: is a lugged plain brass dragon badge automatically a restrike? I've had one for quite a while which I've never been sure about.