Thank you.
There are also references in Clothing Regs and in the RACD ledgers. They contradict none of your research.

Thank you, unfortunately I do not have any of those. As there is only one of each badge listed which size would you say they were for?

Marc :)

Off the cuff, the small, later ones. I will have a shufti, but it will be after this coming weekend.

No rush, and thank you.

Marc :)

From RACD ledger, my notes:

1.1.05 Badges Cavalry scouts 1st class with bar, 2nd class without bar, gilding metal
15.3.05 Badges scouts cavalry to be worn full dress Date uncertain
3.7.07 Badges Scouts gilding metal, 1st and 2nd, size reduced
3.7.07 Badges Scouts, reduced size [gm] 1st and 2nd class size reduced, rubbings included.
16.7.07 Badges Scouts, black backing small size .

2. Cavy Drill Manual 1896 ...."ground scouts" employed in reconnoitring the ground"

3. 1897. Scout badge intro. VDG by B-P

4. 1899. "Aids to Scouting" by B-P " badge fleur de lys representing north point compass, one officer per regiment, and eight men per squadron.

5. Clothing Regs 1909 [not mentioned in previous CR] Cavalry and Infantry First class with bar, and also describes the junior version for cavalry but not for infantry. [CR often a bit behind the drag curve and show signs of clerical and admin errors]

Thanks Grumpy lots of good information there particularly in relation to size.

regards

Hi Grumpy

Thanks for the additional info, I have noted this for further reference.

Regards & Merry Christmas.

Phil.
Down Under.

That is a very odd looking badge, I would think not issued by the Army, but, ertainly not the normal embroidered, worsted type shown in post thirty nine, are any of the other several you mention in post thirty eight, of the embroidered type?

I think it is very interesting to note the dates with particular regard to the size, it would certainly go a considerable way to explain why the large examples seem really quite scarce.
Although there are certainly photographs which might well have been taken post 1907 which do show the large metal badge being worn.

It is unusual, both the khaki fabric and the white fabric, ("4x2" rifle cleaning flannelette?) being raw edged, the whole quite homemade and amateurish but detail on the white FdL is machine stitched which seems an unexpected detail to what really is a rough and ready little badge.
I'm wondering now given its size and general appearance if it is a representation of of the 47th Division's snipers badge rather than of the Scout's badge.

Not sure if this is a Scout badge but, if it is, it must be quite an early example.

That is a Fleur de Lys, but NOT a British Army Scout badge.

A religious token, a brooch perhaps.

regards

Yes, indeed, the fixing prongs are certainly not like anything I have seen on a military badge. It clearly has some age and as the Fleur de Lys has been used for a very long time, it is very difficult to date accurately.

Indeed, certainly not what I would class as a worsted Army Scout Badge, I certainly do not have any cloth examples, but, I still hope that perhaps someone can actually show some on here.

Somewhere in the attic but where?

In about 1985 Denis Edwards let me have all his duplicate scout badges for a very modest fee. In addition to the 4 gilding metal versions and the India Pattern, there were several worsted ones. I certainly have not parted with them, but they are, at best, demi-official because such were never authorised.They were most certainly worn, of course.

8th King's Royal Irish Hussars, according to a captioned postcard I have of the image.

Indeed.

I have picked up a nice photograph of the 1st Royal Devon Yeomanry taken in 1910 or just before, the scout badge is showing up very well, would this be polished brass or white metal?

Rob

more pictures here

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=3481

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=168072

Nice photo - "British Army Proficiency Badges" notes the badges as being produced in brass and in fabrics, no mention of a white metal version.

See post 42.

No way of telling which he wore but more inclined to think the GM version in khaki and WM in Full Dress/WO dress.

regards

White metal was not an Ordnance item but I have no trouble believing that they existed and were worn: the TF and Yeomanry were not known for strict adherence to pattern and were virtually self-sufficient for funding except for essentials.

"White metal was not an Ordnance item?:confused:

Regarding the attachment, what book is that from? Only asking purely out of interest, and so I could reference that book in future.

Thanks

"British Army Proficiency Badges" by D Langley and D Edwards.

The white metal scout badges do not appear anywhere in official references such as Clothing Regs, Priced Vocabs, or the RACD ledgers.

The VR and TF were semi-autonomous. They were also obliged to have SOME of their uniforms and insignia in silver. It is very possible that they funded white metal badges ...... somebody did!

I would have said that too, in particular, within the Cavalry.

"The Toad and The Fleur-de-Lys"

An interesting article on the army scout and the scout movement badges, from an Australian site:

Baden-Powell’s choice, Arrowhead or Fleur-de-Lys?

In July 1924, B-P, by then Lord Baden-Powell, wrote an article in the US Boys’ Life magazine already quoted above. As it seems to answer so many questions and, as the source is impeccable, more of it is quoted below.

“Years ago … certain critics accused the Movement of being a military one … they said that the Scout Movement was designed to teach boys to be soldiers and they quoted as proof that the crest of the Movement was, as they described it, ‘a spearhead, the emblem of bloodshed.’ “

B-Pwas asked what he had to say about this warlike interpretation of his badge. Critics often accused Scouting of being a military organisation, doing nothing more than training boys to become ‘cannon-fodder’, and so he had his answer ready.

“The crest is a lily, the emblem of peace and purity. The history of the Fleur-de-Lys … as a badge goes back many hundreds, if not thousands or years. In ancient India it was used as symbol meaning life and resurrection, while in Egypt it was the attribute of the god Horus, about 2000 years before Christ.

“The actual meaning to be read from the Fleur-de-Lys is that it points in the right direction (and upward) turning neither to the left nor the right, since these can lead backwards again.

“The stars on the two side arms may also be read to mean that the way is blocked and wrong, though they actually stand for the two eyes of the Wolf Cub having been opened before he became a scout, when he gained his first class badge of two stars.

“Furthermore, the three points of the Fleur-de-Lys reminds the Scout of the three points of the Scout’s Promise.”

Well, there we are, a direct statement as to the origin of the badge from the horses’s mouth. Is it possible to be more definitive than that? The article however was written in 1924. Thirty-nine years earlier in 1885, when he was an adjutant in his regiment, B-P had the need to devise a badge.

“I found that the young men that joined the army as recruits were little better than half-educated boys … A few years later … I was in command of a squadron of cavalry in Ireland, and I was keen to teach my men to become practical scouts in addition to their ordinary duty of fighting in the ranks.

“I made them learn to find their way over strange country by map reading, to make maps and to write reports of what they had seen, and to do the same, each man for himself by night as well as day; to swim rivers with their horses, to cook their grub, to follow tracks, and to keep hidden while observing the enemy, and so on … I thought that some reward was due them, and so I got leave from the War Office to give each man that qualified as a scout a distinguishing badge to wear … I hit on the fleur-de-lis, or north point of the compass since, like the compass, these scouts could show the right direction for going over strange country.

“When the Boy Scouts started a few years later I used the same badge for them, for just as soldier scouts, through developing a sense of duty and manliness, they were able to be valuable helpers to the main body of the army, so the Boy Scouts could give equally valuable service to their countrymen..”

In this 1924 Boy’s Life article, B-P called his army badge the Fleur-de-Lys, but also refers to the symbol as a ‘North Point’ and explains its significance as a compass direction. Having set two hares running, the ‘fleur’ and the ‘arrowhead’, derivations to suit different audiences, B-P had created a situation where he could deny neither. By acknowledging both derivations, but giving precedence to neither, it might be thought that B-P was deliberately sitting, somewhat uncomfortably, ‘on the fence’, a position guaranteed to create confusion and controversy. Just which of the two derivations was the original concept for the most popular badge on the world?

The Army Issue

In 1897, B-P left his posting with the 13th Hussars in Dublin to command the 5th Dragoon Guards at Meerut in India. In the absence of examples of ‘Irish’ army scout badges it is tempting, but maybe foolhardy, to state categorically the first ones were made for use with the 5th Dragoons in India. Certainly, once in India B-P trained army scouts and awarded them the badge that he had designed. As far as I am aware the award remained solely for use within the 5th Hussars until after the Boer War had finished when B-P, benefiting from his increased reputation as the ‘Hero of Mafeking’ and promotion to Inspector of Cavalry, was then able to promote the idea of a badge for scouting amongst all ‘his’ cavalry regiments.

The first mention of general use of the badge is made in Army Order 19 of 1905. The following year B-P wrote an article entitled Recent steps in Cavalry Training in England in The Cavalry Journal Vol.1, No. 2 for April 26th 1906 which was officially under his direction.

“In the matter of scouting a great step has been accomplished in placing it on a sound and permanent system. All officers and men are trained as scouts: the twelve best men in a Regiment are further perfected under an ‘intelligence officer’ and are appointed to be ‘regimental scouts’. Of the remainder at least four per squadron are trained to be ‘squadron scouts’. These men are taught carefully the elements of reconnaissance, such as finding their way by map and stars, &c and are put through a large amount of practice in the field, and on long distance patrols &c in order to gain experience. On qualifying satisfactorily they are invested with a distinguishing badge, viz a brass Fleur-de-Lys (North Point) on the left arm.”

The quote is, I repeat, from 1906, one year before the Brownsea camp, two years before Scouting began and some time before anyone could have envisaged that there would be any such thing as French Boy Scouts! It has never been published previously in any Scouting context though it proves definitively that Baden-Powell was neither being evasive or duplicit in insisting on the twin derivations of his badge.

B-P’s use, in 1905, of the term ‘invested’ in the following phrase “On qualifying satisfactorily they are invested with a distinguishing badge” also has significance for modern Scouts. The verb ‘to invest’ may have been in common use in the army of the early 2Oth century, but I cannot recall any other use today in the sense it is used in Scouting, other than the Investiture of the Prince of Wales. (Interestingly there was another use of the term invest current in 1900. B-P often talked of the Boers ‘investing’ or besieging Mafeking.)

As we shall see, the army badge became the Scout badge and so it is then, to say the least, deserving of some prominence in the evolving history of the Scout Movement and its world-wide emblem.

Essentially, as far as shape is concerned, there are only two versions of the badge, one for privates and one for higher ranks. The one for ranking NCOs, sometimes corporals and above, sometimes just sergeants, had a small horizontal bar forming a cross just below the the main emblem. The badges were mainly made of brass which on occasion were polished to a high finish taking away the surface detail. (Surely it would not be a good thing for a scout to wear bright badges that would reflect in the sun!) The small version was designed for caps, whilst the larger one was worn on the right shoulder as can be seen in the postcard of the Army Scout above. Examples exist of some badges being made in silver or silver-plate finish. There was a tradition within the army of badges being commissioned from independent jewellers and even from mail-order catalogues such as Gamages. These costly privately-funded badges were, though, more often than not for officers. This may account for minor variations, or it may be that different regiments used slightly different ‘patterns’.

As was usual in the army, a cloth badge was made for dress uniforms. Whilst I have never seen any of these, I believe that some were made with metal wire, but far more commonly the badge was merely embroidered. I would be very pleased to include an image of any embroidered badge or wire badge here, if one can be located.

An article in a long-out-of-print issue of a Army Medal Collectors’ Journal is of great interest. A photocopy was kindly provided by John Woodfield, a dealer in medals and Scouting artefacts and a good friend of these Pages, who had had them sent to him over ten years ago. Unfortunately the pages contain neither a date nor the publication’s name. Clearly this was a journal of some consequence and the information the unknown author gathered in his article is the most complete I have seen. We would be very pleased if any of our readers could supply the name and issue of the Journal so we can make proper acknowledgement.

The article contains somewhat indistinct photographs of men from different regiments wearing slightly different versions of the two designs described above. It would seem that the badge was extended to Infantry Regiments who may have been responsible for a slightly different version of the standard badge. As time went by, rules as to who was entitled to which version of the badges seem to have been ignored as photos exist with privates wearing the badge with the bar, and senior NCO’s wearing the emblem without bar.

The widespread use of the Army scout badge continued until the end of the Great War in 1918. Army scouts were used extensively during WWI with some battalions having as many as 26 men engaged in scouting, but there seemed little use for scouting in the modernised army after the war and the badge was abolished in 1921. It was however revived by the Indian Army in 1929 which used the original emblem on a green armlet for their regimental scouts.

https://loamisland.kennedyscouts.org...d-scout-badge/

Leigh, many thanks but there is a lot of disinformation scattered among the gems.

After "Essentially, as far as shape is concerned, there are only two versions of the badge, one for privates and one for higher ranks. The one for ranking NCOs, sometimes corporals and above, sometimes just sergeants, had a small horizontal bar forming a cross just below th ...............................

it appears seriously divergent from observed fact and regulations.

I am rather busy but would provide more critique if called for later.

I thought it would contain inaccuracies (and that you'd be the first to comment on them) just interesting to read the comments attributed to B-P and the reference to the F de L being spawned by toads.

Indeed, the article was a good spot and for the most part raised no hackles!

Did you know that I was one of the first Queen's Scouts in the country ?....... previous to the King's death, they were of course King's Scouts.

Yes, I think you mentioned it on a thread concerning Queen's Scouts some while ago and I commented that had you got a wiggle on you could've been a King's Scout.
The height of my own scouting glory days was attaining a few common or garden badges as a cub scout with 1st New Cross (The Greys) Pack at Brockley, nothing outstanding about my service.

This web page also caught my eye - I'd not seen the uppermost badge before and have no idea what it is

The Scout Badge
 

Attachment 255747

Attachment 255748

Attachment 255749

Attachment 255750

Attachment 255751

...these are my examples of the Army Scout proficiency badge - in worsted...the yellow variant has always intrigued me - an AMF military order of 1909 specifies either yellow or white silk in its manufacture so I wonder if the choice of colour extended to the change of shape from one of "SCOUT" in letters to that of the more familiar badge...(8{

There is no evidence the scout badge in any form was ever manufactured and supplied officially in the Australian Army despite MO 112/1909.

The scouts of 3rd Aust Light Horse Brigade in the Middle East wore cloth and metal British pattern scout badges. Also have seen a photo of a South Australian soldier in UK wearing a British pattern cloth scout badge but it was after the Armistice (South Australian State Library collection if I recall correctly).

On operations the green armband was worn by scouts, intelligence types, and German-speakers.

Keith

I have just read this thread - really interesting, thank you to all contributors.

The attached comment made me pull out my badges and measure them against those mentioned of:

Large with Bar = 83mm x 45mm

Large = 69mm x 45mm

Small with bar = 44mm x 25mm

Small = 37mm x 25mm

Mine are:

Large with Bar = 85mm x 46mm

Large = 69mm x 45mm

Small with bar = 45mm x 25mm

Small = 40mm x 25mm