British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/index.php)
-   Photographs of British Servicemen and Women Wearing Insignia (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=35)
-   -   The Scout Badge (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64085)

Frank Kelley 25-11-18 11:31 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I wish I had this example, worn a member of the Hussars, lovely big badge.

manchesters 25-11-18 12:01 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Frank,

Would be like the large one shown below.

regards

grumpy 25-11-18 05:54 PM

How many collectors of Scout badges have their own Queen's Scout Badge?

I sweated blood to gain it, finally managed in 1954. I have the cloth and metal/ enamel versions safely framed.

Just boasting.

leigh kitchen 25-11-18 06:19 PM

1954? If you'd got a wiggle on it could've been a King's Scout Badge.

Jelly Terror 25-11-18 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 434333)
In case it has not been said previously, the official gilding metal badges [all 4 designs] were issued with a black [sic] felt outlining backing ....... a badge with authentic lining would be a nice find.

Paying a lot of money for an unoffical worsted badge, however pretty and well-preserved, is not for me. I have several such [none as handsome], and they are in my "curios" category.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley (Post 454353)
Can you post some photographs of the several you mention?

Ditto... it'd be very interesting to see these if possible.

Also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 419664)
I am sure that the need for scouting ahead of, and on the flanks of, a unit in war has always existed. On the large scale, it was a cavalry task.
On the unit scale, Baden-Powell of Mafeking and Boy Scout fame perceived a need to formalise and specialise to get the best results.

Ideally, a man appointed scout would be fit, active, intelligent, skilled at using cover,a good shot, able to make a good assessment and report accurately.
Scouts were officially integral to cavalry and infantry units.
Each unit was to appoint a subaltern as Scout Officer with a sergeant as deputy and a few junior NCOs. The best trained were appointed regimental [or battalion] scouts and received the badge with cross bar. At company level there was a small number of scouts, wearing the badge without cross bar. The badge was introduced in 1903 and discontinued in 1921, having been reduced in size in 1907.

There is some confusion regarding scouts serving in India. Native troops and most British infantry had a small S in a small wreath as an appointment badge, whereas most British cavalry wore the Home badge.

During the Great War the role embraced sniping and observing.

...I'd be interested to learn the source of your info for the introduction in 1903. I believe the larger scout badges which were reduced in size in 1907, were Patterns 6249/1905 (first class) and 6250/1905 (second class). Can you confirm or dispel either way?

With thanks,

JT

grumpy 25-11-18 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen (Post 460693)
1954? If you'd got a wiggle on it could've been a King's Scout Badge.

A friend of mine a couple of years older gained his King's Scout at about 16 years 6 months, the King died soon after the badge was presented, so friend Ginger, being of an original turn of mind and a glutton for punishment, argued long and hard that there was nothing in the rules ["Policy, Organisation and Rules"] to stop him doing the complete marathon again to become a QS. The District Commissioner found it easier to allow this than argue.
Ginger didn't get a second badge but he did get a second certificate, which may have made him unique to go along with being mad.

grumpy 25-11-18 07:11 PM

JT: I will have to dig for the 1903 reference but will do so. I fear that the pattern numbers were beyond my interest in the long ago when I did the research ....... the hobby has moved on!

My odds and sods are in the attic, only the good stuff is in my study. Next time I ascend I will fight the tarantulas and look. One unofficial cloth badge that I recall is clearly cut from KD sewn on an SD backing and with hooks [as in hooks and eyes] to attach to uniform.

Jelly Terror 25-11-18 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 460700)
JT: I will have to dig for the 1903 reference but will do so. I fear that the pattern numbers were beyond my interest in the long ago when I did the research ....... the hobby has moved on!

My odds and sods are in the attic, only the good stuff is in my study. Next time I ascend I will fight the tarantulas and look. One unofficial cloth badge that I recall is clearly cut from KD sewn on an SD backing and with hooks [as in hooks and eyes] to attach to uniform.

Great stuff. Look forward to those.

Thank you.

JT

leigh kitchen 25-11-18 08:56 PM

Yes, they sound very interesting.

Frank Kelley 26-11-18 08:29 AM

Indeed, a lovely collection you have there, the large examples do seem really quite scarce things these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters (Post 460657)
Frank,

Would be like the large one shown below.

regards


Frank Kelley 26-11-18 01:41 PM

If the larger badges were withdrawn circa 1907, it may certainly go some way to account for the relative scarcity of them, but, where does this information come from?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror (Post 460697)
Ditto... it'd be very interesting to see these if possible.

Also...



...I'd be interested to learn the source of your info for the introduction in 1903. I believe the larger scout badges which were reduced in size in 1907, were Patterns 6249/1905 (first class) and 6250/1905 (second class). Can you confirm or dispel either way?

With thanks,

JT


Jelly Terror 26-11-18 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley (Post 460746)
If the larger badges were withdrawn circa 1907, it may certainly go some way to account for the relative scarcity of them, but, where does this information come from?

Frank,

This information comes from the ACD Records of Changes.

'Badges Arm Scouts Gilding Metal with Plates and Pins - Cavalry incl. Household Cavalry and Infantry - ACD/Cav:/993'

JT

GriffMJ 26-11-18 02:41 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Not sure that he is a Wilts Yeoman? Their cap badge was white metal until post 1947. If you look at his buttons he has a mix of GS on the pockets and Hussars half balls on the jacket opening. The shoulder title looks straight.

Jelly Terror 26-11-18 03:10 PM

Could somebody with access to actual examples, or official records, provide dimensions for these badges; larger and smaller patterns, please?

JT

grey_green_acorn 26-11-18 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror (Post 460760)
Could somebody with access to actual examples, or official records, provide dimensions for these badges; larger and smaller patterns, please?

JT

Does this earlier post help?

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...22&postcount=1

Tim

manchesters 26-11-18 03:25 PM

Mine are as follows:-

Large with Bar = 83mm x 45mm

Large = 69mm x 45mm

Small with bar = 44mm x 25mm

Small = 37mm x 25mm

Jelly Terror 26-11-18 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn (Post 460761)

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters (Post 460764)
Mine are as follows:-

Large with Bar = 83mm x 45mm

Large = 69mm x 45mm

Small with bar = 44mm x 25mm

Small = 37mm x 25mm

Thanks both. Just what I was looking for.

Regards,

JT

grumpy 26-11-18 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror (Post 460751)
Frank,

This information comes from the ACD Records of Changes.

'Badges Arm Scouts Gilding Metal with Plates and Pins - Cavalry incl. Household Cavalry and Infantry - ACD/Cav:/993'

JT

No mention of the black felt backing then?
In any case I have seen a photo [tunic order]of a scout wearing the badge with white backing to match his facing colour.

Jelly Terror 26-11-18 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 460803)
No mention of the black felt backing then?
In any case I have seen a photo [tunic order]of a scout wearing the badge with white backing to match his facing colour.

No mention.

Lancer 17 27-11-18 04:11 AM

G'day Guys

I have both the Scout badges with and without bars but don't have both sizes of the 2, nor do I have a Queen's Scout badge that I earned as a Senior Scout but do have several different examples in my Scout Badge collection.

However I do have a copy of the small red fabric covered copy of Gale & Polden's Military Series, Aids to Scouting for N.-C.-Os. & Men By Lieut.-Gen. R.S.S. Baden- Powell dated 1909.This is a second edition.

The book is 4 3/4" wide by 5 3/4" high and has 178 pages with a few small drawings but no illustration of the badges them selves or any information as to how and where to wear them.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

Lancer 17 27-11-18 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters (Post 460764)
Mine are as follows:-

Large with Bar = 83mm x 45mm

Large = 69mm x 45mm

Small with bar = 44mm x 25mm

Small = 37mm x 25mm

Hi Simon

Thanks for posting the measurement, I have made a note for future reference.

Regards Phil.

tonyb 27-11-18 06:37 AM

Very interesting thread.
Thanks Tony.

Frank Kelley 27-11-18 08:23 AM

Okay, many thanks, the smaller examples do seem to turn up more often than the larger ones, but, I would think that the large ones were worn beyond 1907, by some soldiers, for example, whilst the Hussar in post forty one may certainly be pre 1914, I suspect he is also post 1907, but, by how much, I do not know.

He does appear to have the much vaunted backing behind his large badge too.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror (Post 460751)
Frank,

This information comes from the ACD Records of Changes.

'Badges Arm Scouts Gilding Metal with Plates and Pins - Cavalry incl. Household Cavalry and Infantry - ACD/Cav:/993'

JT


Frank Kelley 27-11-18 07:33 PM

Hello Simon,
I must see if I can find those that I have, but, I would not expect to see anything whatsoever regarding size variation in the dies that were used to produce these badges.
Regards Frank


Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters (Post 460764)
Mine are as follows:-

Large with Bar = 83mm x 45mm

Large = 69mm x 45mm

Small with bar = 44mm x 25mm

Small = 37mm x 25mm


Frank Kelley 29-11-18 08:14 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Unsurprisingly, the sizes mentioned by Simon are the same as those that I have looked at, but, I wonder if there was any considerable variation in the size of cloth examples?

Has anyone got any cloth examples they can actually show?

grey_green_acorn 29-11-18 09:37 AM

NOT A SCOUT BADGE!!! Sniper 47 London Div WW2
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley (Post 460979)
Unsurprisingly, the sizes mentioned by Simon are the same as those that I have looked at, but, I wonder if there was any considerable variation in the size of cloth examples?

Has anyone got any cloth examples they can actually show?

A cloth fleur de lys 65mm X 55mm based on the Army Scout badge fleur de lys design but introduced by 47 London Division during WW2 for Snipers.

Tim

grey_green_acorn 29-11-18 09:38 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The back

Tim

leigh kitchen 29-11-18 10:51 AM

Has anybody mentioned the embroidered Scout badge of FdL with bar embroidered in yellow on red cloth used by 8th Bn Suffolk's during WWI?
I'd forgotten about it (ref. Formation Sign 158 of 1990 and The Badges of Kitchener's Army by David Bilton)

manchesters 29-11-18 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn (Post 460984)
A cloth fleur de lys 65mm X 55mm

Tim

Tim,

Thats Not a Scout badge.
Its a Company Sniper's badge of the 47th London Division c. 1942.

regards

grey_green_acorn 29-11-18 11:24 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Simon,
Thanks, I was aware, hence I described it as a fleur de lys.

Tim

manchesters 29-11-18 11:36 AM

Tim,

However this thread is entitled "The Scout Badge" and it maybe as a result of your post be thought of by others as an example of a scout badge, which as you are aware, it is not, hence my clarification.

regards

grey_green_acorn 29-11-18 01:45 PM

Detail on my cloth fleur de lys badge amended for clarification

Tim

grumpy 29-11-18 07:17 PM

To be fair there was a big overlap/ morphing of the functions of scout, sniper, observer, intelligence in the Great War. There is anecdotal evidence of snipers wearing the scout badge ..... there was not a sniper badge as such at that time.

Frank Kelley 30-11-18 08:21 AM

I would certainly be very interested to know of any variation in the size of the cloth versions of the Army Scout badge, that is relevant to this thread.

Again, has anyone got any examples that they can actually post in this thread?

grumpy 30-11-18 06:12 PM

I have found my scruffy little cloth version s advertised above. Hope to scan and post over the weekend. Dont hold your breath ..... "interesting" is polite!

leigh kitchen 30-11-18 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 461146)
I have found my scruffy little cloth version s advertised above. Hope to scan and post over the weekend. Dont hold your breath ..... "interesting" is polite!

I like the sound of this badge.

Frank Kelley 01-12-18 04:08 PM

The cloth example looks to be quite a sizeable badge, were the measurements given when it was recently sold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postwarden (Post 419098)
A nice portrait of a regimental scout, from his cap badge serving with the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry although his shoulder title - in spite of my scanner's best efforts, illegible - appears to be straight and not curved which is what I would have expected.

The superb cloth example was recently sold at auction for a considerable sum.

Comments welcome.

Jon


grumpy 03-12-18 02:38 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen (Post 461147)
I like the sound of this badge.

Somebody loved it.

leigh kitchen 03-12-18 04:30 PM

I like it, it has character. I only have a couple of "homemade" insignia, a rank chevron and some overseas service chevrons embroidered on swatches of cloth having presumably been applied directly to the tunic sleeves. They're interesting although I see the case for sticking with insignia of more conventional and official manufacture.

54Bty 10-12-18 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 419255)
From the 1906/7 RACD ledgers, and from PVCN 1907, Clothing Regs 1909, 1911 PVCN, 1913 PVCN, 1914 Clothing Regs, and 1915 PVCN the four scout badges [large with bar, large, small with bar, and small] are only described as "brass" or "gilding metal" or "metal". , There were lots of worsted ones around and [tellingly] lots of worsted variations of course. The Gamages demi-official list of c. 1917 has both worsted and brass versions for private purchase.

All I can find in the PVCN are listed below.

Marc


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:57 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.