Unknown prince of Wales plumes
 

Having spent a bittersweet couple of months going through my collection could do with some help in identifying a few badges.
Two to start
Attachment 217970

Attachment 217971

The large one is possibly an arm badge. Not sure to which one.

The other one was a collar worn by several cavalry and yeomanry regiments.

Thanks Alan, another couple down. Although I enjoy ploughing through reference books sometimes just can’t find what your looking for.

Has the large badge not had the 'ICH DIEN' scrolls carefully removed?

Alex, I have just had a good look at this badge ref scroll removed. I think you are correct. Although I could not see any obvious signs of removal, rough edge etc. There is a definite space with the outline of where two scrolls could have been. Thanks.

G'day Sapper

Having a look at your 2 badges, I also think that the larger one is an Arm Badge, however agree that the ICH DIEN motto has been removed. This was used by the 3rd Dragoon Guards, the 10th Hussars and the 12th Lancers and some of their subsequent amalgamations. One of the Bibles on arm badges is Cavalry Warrant Officers' and Non-Commissioned Officers' Arm Badges by David Linaker and Gordon Dine which shows this badge with Ich Dien mottos for these regiments.

I have had a look at my several badges of this type and they all have 3 lugs, 2 at the top east west and one central at the bottom, where as your has only 2 north south.

The smaller badge I believe to be a collar badge also used by the above 3 cavalry regiments and also several Yeomanry regiments including the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry. These can be found in Churchill and Westlake's book, British Army Collar Badges 1881 to the Present .

I hope that this helps

Regards Phil.

Thanks lancer 17. I have now marked this badge as such. Why would someone do that, is it just that they snapped off ?

Hi Sapper

No I doubt it as the 2 motto panels are part of the die struck badge, Ie its all struck in one piece. The Mottos are attached to both the sides of the feather bases and the under side of the coronet like the ones on the smaller collar badge.

I would think that they were cut off some how rather than broken off as the points where they attach would show signs of where they had been and not be "regular" as they appear to be.

If you go into one of the better dealers sites, maybe Dead Spartan or the Quartermaster and use the 2nd search box on the top left, type in 10th Hussars or 12th Lancers and hit go, this will bring up everything they have or have sold for these regiments and scroll down looking for the Arm Badge, on thinking about it the Quartermaster has better photos especially of the back of the badges. Try it and see how you go and you will see what Im talking about. Also don't forget yours only have 2 lugs north and south where as all the ones I have, have 3 lugs as per my last post.

Good luck

Phil.

A real long shot,, but could the scrolls have been removed or the die altered to conform the badge closer to the style worn by 10th Hussars officers on some headgear?
Perhaps on the steel helmet?
Just thinking out loud.

Hi Sapper and Leigh.

The 10th Hussars officers "Tent Cap" badge is only 42 mm high and 32mm across the PoW feathers and they have the motto in 2 small scrolls that are at right angles to the extended bottom ends of the feathers. The feathers group are struck in one piece with no gaps between the individual feathers. This badge is not shown in the 1900 Dress Regulations.

I have 2 of these and on one the white metal parts of the badge are marked P for silver plate and the coronet is gilt. Each has 2 small lugs east west in the middle of the feathers just where they narrow below the turn over on the feather tops.

Leigh I have not seen a badge like the one that you showed without the motto scrolls.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

Thanks for that info - I thought that any illustrations of the 10th's officers tent and beret (and collar badges?) I'd seen were as per the one I show albeit with gilded coronet rather than all silver finish.

I dug this out just to show the lug arrangement - the fittings don't appear to be post manufacturing replacements.
The standard 2 up 1 down lugs but it looks like two other lugs were initially fitted too low on the badge, removed and replaced with two in the correct places:

Hello guys

Ive put another post on this thread to bring it to the top having regard to another more recent post on a similar subject and I also think that were was a second similar post recently as well.

Regards

Phil.