Guards "Trade" badges in worsted
 

Please can someone tell me when these were introduced?
I have been startled to read a leading authority state that they were possibly in use in the Great War. It would be good to have a definitive answer. Pattern number or Army Order?
Either way, if they were in use 100 years ago they were not described in PVCN or Clothing Regs that I can see.

The PVCN for 1926, lists a number of sleeve badges (LG in Wreath ect.) as Worsted. These I would expect to be in khaki thread on khaki serge, of course not exclusive to the Guards.

Marc

Thank you for having a look. My PVCNs don't go that modern!

Could it be that they were introduced as early as SD, in 1902?

Another suggestion, from an ex-guardsman, is that the distinctive Guards pattern badges were introduced when the Line downsized all the "Trade" badges.

So when was that please?

The 2/3rds size badges and chevrons in a white thread on khaki were introduced on the issue of No2 Service Dress to replace Battle Dress. They are classed as 1960 Pattern and were manufactured and issued from the early 1960s. Patterns in ‘Regimental colours’ also appeared in the 1960s.

Dated Sealed Patterns - more here https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hp?albumid=351

Tim

Very many thanks. Do you have an opinion on the issue of the "Guards Pattern" introduction please?

Using Pattern Numbers to date badges is not a precise science. However, many/most 1960 Pattern badges have Pattern Numbers in the 190** to 191** sequence with cards dated to the early 1960s.
I can only identify a few brown on khaki badges with Pattern Numbers in the 103** sequence which would date them back to the late 1920s. These would be embroidered in cotton threads and for Service Dress not specifically Guards.
There are subsequent more recent issues in the 245** sequence which are embroidered in synthetic threads and are a more greenish hue and are specifically for the Household Division. They would date from the 1970s or later.

Tim

Thank you very much. Without wishing to press too hard, is it reasonable to suggest that the badges specifically for the Household Divison post-date the 1960 series by about ten years ?
My modestly knowledgeable period ends soon after the Great War, and I have no visibility of any of the unusual brown/grey thread [and handsome] Guards badges in my collection. Of course photos are useless.

Grumpy, the 10 year suggestion would seem reasonable.
I am away for a couple of days but have some 1960s - 1980s MOD documentation at home that may provide some clarity. I will post next week.

Tim

Further to the quest, I have had helpful replies [of course!] from Jon Mills and Gary Gibbs. Unfortunately both replies leave doubt for the period pre-1960 or so.

My interim view, pending a solid piece of evidence, is that the Foot Guards rank and "trade" badges have probably been unique in the colour of the threads used from very early days, possibly as early as 1902 when SD was introduced.

Somebody out there surely has a SD jacket to the Guards with badges intact?

I have asked for help on the Great War Forum ....... some keen period uniform collectors there.

Is it not just the use of words as all the original cloth SD badges were the same colour and worn by all. I would think that when the white on khaki came along some decided that the khaki on khaki would be for the Guards (& HAC) only, and then when the large white on khaki were replaced by the two thirds 1960 pattern it was decided that the 'Guards' would keep the larger khaki on khaki ones.

Marc

Thank you very much. Please excuse my ignorance, I understand you to say that you believe the original rank and trades etc on SD were khaki on khaki and that subsequently white on khaki were introduced.
Please have you any idea of the date of white introduction?

My collection of "Trades" is heavily weighted [literally] towards metal, and I can only have a good shot at dating worsted by saying "after 1913" for example for MG in wreath, knowing when it was authorised.

One thing greatly intrigues me. I worked closely with the rightly famous Denis Edwards from late 70s to mid 80s. We shared knowledge, swapped badges and eventually published the textbook.

Denis never ever noted or hinted at a systematic Guards pattern for SD arm badges. ...... essentially badges with a buff brown thread.

Are there any sealed patterns? This would only be the case if they were official issue.