RWF
 

Does anybody possess a Royal Welsh Fusiliers capbadge in a/a with slider for the hat rather than the pronged beret badge?
If so,does it have a hackle holder fitted to it ?

Mike, the slider version of the badge was short lived and did not come with a hackle holder. It was only worn for a short period when the RWF first joined the Welsh Brigade. It was used for the Coloured version of the No1 Dress cap (Royal type - scarlet and blue) which the RWF party (including band) wore for street lining. The regiment wore an issue (RSF/RHF) white hackle in all forms of khaki and OD/KD dress, but not No1 (Blue) and No 3 (White) dress. A few years later permission was sought and gained to wear a beret and hackle in these forms of dress too and a new badge was issued with the 2 lugs and a hackle holder.

Thanks Toby,so what your saying is that its possible to find a slidered version.

My question is not related to the RWF. I have an a/a Royal Irish Fusiliers cap badge with the RA Hughes marked slider. Were Hughes one of the earliest a/a manufacturers?

Phil

Hi Mike I sold a slidered RWF AA recently and that never had a holder, I let it go for £3 in my ignorance.

After reading Toby's info I may just be kicking myself!

Regards
Ry

Problem is Charlie that unless people have the information then nobody would have known about it.To be honest i dont think that many people would notice or be bothered as long as the badge was genuine.So although you might have got a bit more than £3,probaly not more than £5-£6 maximum.
But the information we have adds to the knowledge we possess.
And that means for some people its another badge to look out for for their collections.

So this covered all RWF badged personnel Toby ?

Hi Kevin,

Information on this company is sadly lacking and all that can be said is that R.A. Hughes definitely made anodised badges from October 1957 together with Firmin, Grove Manufacturing, J.R. Gaunt and H.W. Timings. This manufacturing information is recorded in War Office Anodised Aluminium Badge Policy File WO32/16956 held at the National Archives, Kew.

If anyone else can add to the above then please let me know.

Badges by Hughes are scarce and worth looking out for.

Regards

Chris

Yes, even the band stopped wearing the No1 Dress cap (probably the last in the regiment to do so) because they regained scarlet full dress and sealskin hats (at regimental expense) and so dispensed with No1 Dress Blues other than for some concert gigs (these too were later replaced with a variation on mess dress).

This did not, however, cover WOs and Officers, neither of whom ever wore the aa badge at all. They had instead the embroidered grenade on beret (WOs) and Dress Cap (officers), with the latter wearing OSD badges on khaki caps.

Yes, it is possible to find a slidered aa version, but not many were made

The last time the slidered aa badge would have been worn was the 1960s when TA (4th and 5th Bns) and cadets (6th and 7th Bns) still wore regimental badges whilst regulars (1st Bn) wore Welsh Brigade head-dress badges. The new aa lugged badge came in at the point that the Welsh Brigade was disembodied and RWF obtained permission to return to regimental badges in 1968. I imagine that is when the Firmin badges were used and worn in the beret with a hackle slid into the beret's badge securing strip. Neither I or my brother ever saw aa slidered badges in the regular Bn (that is 1963-84).

Thanks for the help Toby,have seen photos of WO with the embroided badge looks really good.

Made me think if the RRF had the same thing,have only come across lugged RRF.But NF and RF A/A were both slidered with no hackle holder.

Hi Gents,
I also have a FIRMIN and a GAUNT example too with slider, so that's three makers that we know of for what should be a fairly scarce and early anodised badge. I recall from another thread that there was an example of RWF made were the flames were distorted and of poor quality - would be another 'example' to keep an eye out for.

I've found R A HUGHES badges are generally really nice quality and an earlier maker - although that is HAGWALTHERS area of expertise at present!

The only other slider anomilliy similar to this is a Grenadier Guards anodised cap badge with a slider and not lugs. This is a London Badge and Button Co example so a fairly late example.

All the best gents

Bess

Bess,

Yes, there was an entire batch ( large one) of distorted badges and I never understood why they were accepted (I don't think they were checked), but I was so 'outraged' that as a lowly Cpl I went to see the QM, who was quite amused. Partly as a result, the CO authorised the PRI to purchase bi/m badges with sliders by Gaunt for soldiers to buy. These were nice badges but unusual in that they were lacquered and the nickel circlet was secured to the grenade not by brazing (too time consuming) but by the simple edifice of 2 pins protruding through 2 holes and then bent over. This was insecure and not soldier proof and many of us hand soldered them in the REME Wksp. This was about 1978-79.

The grenade part of the a/a badges that were distorted must have been produced in large numbers, as they were later used to make up TV 'prop' badges for both, early editions of Soldier Soldier, and an episode of Midsomer Murders involving a notional TA unit!

I have no idea who came up with the notion of a hackle holder anyway, they were unnecessary and Scottish units never needed them. I think it must have been someone's 'bright idea'! I never used mine.

Thanks Toby,
the kind of information you can try and research elsewhere all day long and never get there .. . . . .

Many thanks mate, I'll be looking at every anodised RWF badge I come across now with scrutiny!

Bess

King's Own Fusiliers TV Regiment
 

Cap Badge and Hackle of the "King's Fusiliers" later in the series following amalgalmation with the "Cumbrian Regiment" retitled the "King's Own Fusiliers".

But the badge changed as well.

Toby,did you possess a blackened RWF badge.If so,was this done in house or a produced item ?

Yes, we did it in house and we used matt land rover paint from the MT.

Sacrilege I know (I was young and over-enthusiastic), but for my own beret I blackened a spare all brass economy badge circa 1915 (with the spelling Welsh rather than Welch). I wanted to feel connected with the 14-18 men in whom I was in awe.

These same badges were still held in great numbers at the regimental depot during National Service in the 1950s. To make use of them the RSM arranged with the QM for defaulters on 'jankers' to be issued the badges temporarily so that they could be identified by SNCOs who they passed for any dirty jobs that required doing. How ingenious and typical of the Army!

Yes, that is the badge I meant, although it was the first badge that the series used, rather than the second, I think. Look at the flames and you can see how distorted and uneven the tips are. That is the badge that we received, but with the correct PoW feathers and title circlet, superimposed of course.

For completeness here is a link to the "second pattern" badge worn by the King's Own Fusiliers. It follows the RRF design of grenade.

Set as a quiz by 2747andy

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...highlight=quiz

Toby,
further to your entry here, I recently 'located' an example of this RWF badge on our favourite infamous internet auction site, for £3.

It is exactly as you described and is clearly the same as the image later shown and used on 'Soldier, Soldier'.

The quality of this badge is quite obviousely poor, the flames are uneven - particularly on the right as you look at it. It is very shiney and has no rear holder for the hackle.

Additionally the silver plumes and title circlet are askew and are not set straight. No wonder they were sent back.

Thanks for the above, it has alerted me (and others of course) to yet another slight variation.

Regards all

Bess

I think i noticed an RRF the other day with a similar askew circlet.

An old, old thread found whilst searching for some anod. al. info.
Virtually every RRF anod. al. badge I've ever seen has had an offset central device.
I've always considered it the norm.

Does anyone know if the anod. al. version of the RWF badge with a short tubular pipe barrel type hackle fitting was produced and worn during the regiments's life time and if so when please?

More images of the badge, I haven't seen that type of hackle fitting before.

Edit to add that the flames are rather foreshortened and rounded on the right as viewed from the front and the gold colouring is of a very light shade.

Leigh - new one on me. I've got 7 variations on the RWF (lug types, sliders, rivet numbers and configuration etc.). The usual type are a kind of closed triangle or an open triangle where the 'blades' can be pushed together to hold the hackle wires.

This badge I believe to be FIRMIN made - going by the flattened flames on the right, the 2 vertical rivet combination and the all one 'loop' flat lug construction.

Date wise couldn't say. I have a FIRMN bag with this badge in it - although not with the round tubular hackle holder but the closed triangle type (if you see what I mean). This is dated 08/06/05.

Interesting though . . . . another variation to look out for!

Regards all

Bess

Very strange fitting indeed.
Not seen that on any other badge either. Usually the bar type shaped like a cropped pyramid.
I can only think of RRF,RWF and Solihull CCF on anodised that have a hackle holder fitted to the badge.

I did see a few days back ,an RWF with the lugs removed then refitted north and south. I presume this was to fit to the chrome plate for the belt.

All interesting little variations.
RRF's stable belt plate bore what was in effect the anod al beret badge but produced without the hackle attachment and with shorter lugs.
You find the beret badge with hackle attachment broken off being used as an improvised stable belt badge and the stable belt badge painted black for use as an improvised beret badge for NI wear.
The stable belts were of impractical design, an anod al badge fitted to a brass belt plate with a cotter pin and for some goodness knew why reason with two small brass washers.
The badge got worn and damaged easily and the brass work needed Brassoing front and back, so the badge had to be constantly removed and replaced and if the badge lugs got broken you had to adapt a beret badge or buy a complete new belt and plate.
The QMs scrutinised all beret badges offered for exchange to ensure that no one was attempting to pull a fast one with a belt plate badge.
Beret badges usually broke at the junction of ball and flames and both parts had to be produced, not just one.
At least, that were it in mah day back in't 70's.
I don't know what sort of arrangement RWF had with belt plates and fittings, but the grenade badges look a little more substantial at the junction of ball and flame than the RRF design.

Hello
I have been reading this thread with interest,especially when it is said that the RWF slidered is fairly scarce
Here is my slidered Gaunt one for scrutiny,

Chris

Apologies, I've just realised that I have'nt thanked you for this useful info. - "thanks button"

Nice, I have two on sliders, both by Firmin London

That tubular hackle holder is from after my time, Leigh, and I’ve not seen it before. What is clear to me though is that someone has bent together the prongs/lugs that protrude horizontally from the back of the badge, probably to secure it closer to the beret without using a cotter pin. I’ve seen that done quite frequently. Personally I used plastic separators from the inside of ammunition boxes with two apertures punched through which could then receive the prongs with a snug fit.

Yes, that configuration of North and South ‘might’ have been done for a belt plate, although throughout the 1970s and early 80s we were still using the old ‘Welsh Brigade’ cap badge on a brass rectangular plate fitted to a white pvc belt of ‘Slade Wallace’ type. In the mid-1980s a Mazak brand clasp was adopted, but in a white chrome finish that was incorrect historically, and fitted to both, green and white courlene (a type of Nylon) web belts. It’s possible that your badge was used on a belt plate by 3 RWF (TA), as the regimental policy was fluid for a few years and the two battalions were not always aligned in every detail. Because no ceremonial belt was publicly funded (issued), other than to the band (new arrivals at the 1st Bn were ‘ordered’ to purchase the Welsh Brigade type from the PRI Shop), there was no consistency across the Regiment as a whole regarding what should be worn with No 2 Dress for a period until the introduction of the Mazak clasp.

Hi Guys,

The early RWF badges had sliders and this was changed in 1970 to lugs. Each badge had its own CB No. with the later badge also being issued a NSN at a later date.

I could not find the pattern No. for the slider badge but the lugged badge was 20264.

Regards,

Chris

Thank you for sharing Jerry,
Interesting they made two different versions in such a short space of time, I wonder what they thought was wrong with the first one they made?
Chris

Chris, one has had its slider bent, making it look more different than it is.