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GriffMJ 15-12-14 02:12 PM

17/21 Lancers AA Maker by Date (Official)
 
Hi All

The official dates for the AA Motto being supplied & worn by the 17th/21st Lancers:-

Other Ranks
NSN 8455-99-973-9382 (CB3027)
Pattern No:- 18552
Spec. No. UK/CIC/2124D

22/11/1966 = Smith & Wright Ltd - NV821057

Gaunt moved from London to Birmingham in the late 1960s.

In 1969 Firmin & Sons purchase Smith & Wright Ltd & Dowler.


22/3/1972 = Firmin & Sons - 3878 (Produced their own Motto and a copy of the SWLtd Motto)

5/6/1973 = J.R.Gaunt - 1231

The London Badge & Button Co Ltd become established in 1973. Started by Keith Riddle, a former Gaunt employee.

4/9/1985 = London Badge & Button Co Ltd - IV738

Firmin & Sons acquire J.R.Gaunt in 1991

5/7/1993 = London Badge & Button Co Ltd <-- Queen's Royal Lancers (then Post 2000 TKS acquisition of LB&BCoLtd). Firmin are still making their AA Motto post 2000 as seen on their NSN packets.

No mention of the Shaw Munster Motto...... but the card is marked "CBand OPS 2K SURPLUS" and the company was making their AA post 2000.

Mike H 15-12-14 03:37 PM

Where did you find this Griff ?

GriffMJ 15-12-14 03:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Off this sealed pattern card :D

First SWLtd attached BTW :) .....There is a sequence of four AA to collect from this maker, ties in well to a four year production period. Dowler is not mentioned, but I think that they will come under Firmin & Sons in 1972.

Gaunt has the HMd silver for 1964..... so the AA that came from that die was not used until the early 1970s by the looks.

hagwalther 16-12-14 07:24 AM

Griff,

A master/standard pattern card/tag has nothing to do with the issue or wearing of badges by specific units.

All they are used for is as a guide for production for the manufacturing companies to use when creating their example of the cap badge or other military piece of equipment.

The information on the back records the issue of the card to a specific company being, in your example,:

1) company name
2) date of issue
3) initials of issuer
4) issue voucher number that the pattern card is issued against

When the issue voucher number is crossed through it means that the card has been returned by the company concerned to the pattern room.

The amount of master/standard pattern cards created varies with the badges used taken from, as far as I can gather, the original prototype samples. Master patterns are never issued out while standard patterns may be found with blank reverses (never issued) or multiple examples of issues often to the same company over different dates as per the example you have shown. Unless blank the rear of the standard pattern cards, for the same badge, will, without doubt, be different. Note that for the RTR 13 standard patterns were created for the same badge.

Both master and standard patterns, of which it is thought that there were usually two or three master patterns and possibly six or more standard patterns per badge, were physically ‘sealed’. One of the standard pattern cards for the Royal Tank Regiment badge has a hand written note of ‘13 STANDARD ONE MASTER’ added to it (see Appendix 3: Patterns Sealed) implying that the amount of pattern cards created was not constant.

Have I misunderstood your initial post - did you think the information on the back of the card related to the actual production of badges by the companies so recorded on them?

Chris

Alan O 16-12-14 10:55 AM

Chris

So if I understand it correctly the dates refer to the movement of the card to manufacturers and there may have been several cards sent out.

GriffMJ 16-12-14 11:09 AM

Chris

The dates on the card, in my view, are the given contract dates? "Production" of the badge will/may have taken place earlier than the contract date.

Why would a sealed pattern card get sent to a manufacturer thats been making the thing for years?

Yes, I am aware that there will be more than one card. This particular card has the early S&WLtd Motto attached.... I am sure that there are later cards with other manufacturers "In service" AA Mottoes attached with approval dates that match or are near the dates above. This card appears to have been on file from 1966 up to the year 2000.

Have you (or anyone else) got an image of a sealed pattern card of the AA Motto with an earlier "approved" date? ...... or a later approved date?

Gaunt make a new motto die in 1963/4 in London, as seen in the Officers HMd version..... that die is then later used to make the Other Ranks AA in B'HAM. As I understand it Gaunt were moving their whole operation up to Birmingham during the late 1960s.

If I am right it means that the Regiment was using the post 1946 White metal, supplied by SWLtd, Gaunt & Firmin up until 1966. Gaunt did not make an AA Motto with the large "J.R.GAUNT LONDON" mark on it (as seen on the old die Wm.)..... therefore all Other Ranks AA Motto production was done in Birmingham after the move...... this ties in nicely with the 1973 date and then 18 years of AA production under the NSN.

The LDYPAO AA Cap Badge sealed pattern card is dated 17/1/1961, it didn't enter service with the Regiment until 1963. Post 1966 its MMd "J.R.GAUNT B'HAM", prior to this date its MMd the large J.R.GAUNT LONDON on the BiM as well as the AA. Card reverse: inscribed ISC Bingham 20/12/67 followed by initials (illegible) (3625 deleted).

* BTW.... the very last LYPAO Gm & Wm were MMd with the large "J.R.GAUNT LONDON".... the Wm can be dated for the 1954 Coronation and few were made. Prior to this date the 11mm mark is seen.
** We also know that The AA 1RD Eagle was first sealed on the 30th of December 1963 (showing the large J.R.GAUNT LONDON mark), its alleged that the Regiment didn't wear it ..... preferring to use supplies of the BiM Eagle until amalgamation in 1969.

hagwalther 16-12-14 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 290105)
Chris

So if I understand it correctly the dates refer to the movement of the card to manufacturers and there may have been several cards sent out.

Hi Alan,

As I know things but I'm sure 54Bty and Mike C will know more - the dates on the back of the card are indeed what you say.

The reason that there are multiple standard pattern cards is because there are many manufacturers. As a new contract to supply was raised the manufacturing companies would tender to supply the required badges. Therefore, each would request the pattern card so that they knew what was required. As only one card could be sent to one manufacturer at a time so multiple standard patterns had to be created to enable each manufacturer to see what was required in the manufacture of the badge.

The information on the back of the card represents the issue of the card, and its return, to the pattern room.

From all the interested manufacturers, each would tender and the successful maker given the contract while the others would either not tender (some badges such as 9th/12th Royal Lancers were deemed to be very difficult, in A/A, to make) or would not be successful.

From the information on the back of the card the best that can be said is for a specific pattern (and the same unit badge may have had multiple patterns over different dates) is that on the date of issue show a contract to tender was raised for either the original or a subsequent batch of badges.

One can go further if the initial issue was to ‘I.S.C. Birmingham' or 'I.S.C. Branson':

One interesting entry found on the rear of many pattern cards is ‘I.S.C. Birmingham’ or for some earlier pattern cards ‘I.S.C. Branson’. The initials stand for ‘Inspectorate of Stores and Clothing’. Cards with this entry on may well have been sent to the Inspectorate to enable a check to be made on the first manufactured batch of badges that the pattern related to. This was to ensure that they came up to pattern standard. Therefore, from the ISC issue date that is written onto the rear of the pattern it is not inconceivable to surmise that it very closely follows the date of manufacture of the first batch.

If anyone needs more info on pattern cards/tags then they will know where to find it.

Regards

Chris

hagwalther 16-12-14 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GriffMJ (Post 290108)
Chris

The dates on the card, in my view, are the given contract dates? "Production" of the badge will/may have taken place earlier than the contract date.

Why would a sealed pattern card get sent to a manufacturer thats been making the thing for years?

Yes, I am aware that there will be more than one card. This particular card has the early S&WLtd Motto attached.... I am sure that there are later cards with other manufacturers "In service" AA Mottoes attached with approval dates that match or are near the dates above. This card appears to have been on file from 1966 up to the year 2000.

Have you (or anyone else) got an image of a sealed pattern card of the AA Motto with an earlier "approved" date? ...... or a later approved date?

Gaunt make a new motto die in 1963/4 in London, as seen in the Officers HMd version..... that die is then later used to make the Other Ranks AA in B'HAM. As I understand it Gaunt were moving their whole operation up to Birmingham during the late 1960s.

If I am right it means that the Regiment was using the post 1946 White metal, supplied by SWLtd, Gaunt & Firmin up until 1966. Gaunt did not make an AA Motto with the large "J.R.GAUNT LONDON" mark on it (as seen on the old die Wm.)..... therefore all Other Ranks AA Motto production was done in Birmingham after the move...... this ties in nicely with the 1973 date and then 18 years of AA production under the NSN.

The LDYPAO AA Cap Badge sealed pattern card is dated 17/1/1961, it didn't enter service with the Regiment until 1963. Post 1966 its MMd "J.R.GAUNT B'HAM", prior to this date its MMd the large J.R.GAUNT LONDON on the BiM as well as the AA. Card reverse: inscribed ISC Bingham 20/12/67 followed by initials (illegible) (3625 deleted).

* BTW.... the very last LYPAO Gm & Wm were MMd with the large "J.R.GAUNT LONDON".... the Wm can be dated for the 1954 Coronation and few were made. Prior to this date the 11mm mark is seen.
** We also know that The AA 1RD Eagle was first sealed on the 30th of December 1963, its alleged that the Regiment didn't wear it ..... preferring to use supplies of the BiM Eagle until amalgamation in 1969.

Griff,

I sent you the reference to the first known A/A 17th/21st cap badge, the Branston Delivery Document, dated 13th May 1960.

You have not bothered to take this information on board here with your original posting so I see little point in taking the matter further.

Chris

GriffMJ 16-12-14 07:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hagwalther (Post 290214)
Griff,

I sent you the reference to the first known A/A 17th/21st cap badge, the Branston Delivery Document, dated 13th May 1960.

Chris

When did you send this? Did you send it to my email or other? Nothing received here.....

In Chapter 21 - AAB13 - 17th/21st Lancers, you show the image of the looped AA made by Gaunt stating "Circa - Early 1960s".

In your book in Chapter 6 you state that the Gaunt Birmingham mark is no earlier than 1966 on page 51 (6.6). The Gaunt London Stamp seen in the looped AA is a by product of being produced from the earlier "new" Officers die (HMd examples 1964) - see attached image.... when the slider is fixed, in the same production, it has the B'HAM mark on the slider with the London mark still on the body [1]. After that initial production the male die is changed to have the London mark removed in the next production. From that alteration the next AA, the S/P Officers SD Cap Motto arrives NSN: 8455-99-130-3056 and we also see the chrome belt motto. I would put that second production in the mid 1970s. By the late 1970s and beginning of the 1980s we see another change in the back image that includes AA, Black AA, Chrome .... with one more back image change (including another Officers S/P) that includes AA marked down and then up the slider, all Wm, Blackened Wm (Officers in Oman), chrome, Bronzed and Gun metal....... and that takes us up to 1991.

[1] If these were produced in the early 1960s they would have had the sliders with the large "J.R.GAUNT LONDON" mark on them. This mark is seen on the "old" die (post 1945) white metals produced for the Other Ranks...... a die that had many flaws and had reached the end of its working life by the 1960s. The "repaired" old die produced first the HMd 1946 Officers, S/Ps (SD Cap & Beret) and then the Other Ranks (slider) with a life span of 1945-63. Gaunt probably made the decision that the Old Die was not going to produce a good AA and therefore made the new die, in preparation, for it. Smith & Wright Ltd then win, in the meantime, the contract for the first AA production for the 17/21L in or around 1966. Once Gaunt completed its move from London to Birmingham in the late 1960s..... they are then ready for production. The politics of the late 1960s also added to production delays with many Regiments amalgamating etc.

* The odd mark in the bunch is the AA marked "J.R.GAUNT LONDON LTD" W= 30.23mm H = 1.83mm (with digital calipers) included in the last back image type and probably the last AA? As seen on your page 50, Chapter 6, para 6.4..... but the measurements differ.

By 1992 the LB&BCoLtd Motto had been fully adopted and on into QRL.

fougasse1940 17-12-14 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GriffMJ (Post 290215)
Once Gaunt completed its move from London to Birmingham in the late 1960s..... they are then ready for production.

Wasn't production always in Birmingham, with London just the main office?

Rgds, Thomas.

GriffMJ 18-12-14 10:53 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This is Gaunts second production and I would put this in the mid 1970s... as you can see the Gaunt London mark has been removed, the male die I think has been "annealed" (re heated) and stamped into the cold female to harden it off for the new production.... hence its taken on a bit more of the females shape. In later productions you gradually start to see the females image in the male die because of the annealing process that takes place before every new run. I suspect the AA was made after the production of the S/P & the chrome belt.... but within the same time period?

* Does anyone know what the NSN is for the 17/21 belt buckle?

GriffMJ 18-12-14 07:50 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The next production appears to be a split one? The male die image is the same for all (differs from the previous production)..... but the slider fix position indicates a tooling change. So the MM Down has a partner in the chrome and the MM Up has a partner in the black AA . I think this set is produced in the late 1970s beginning of the 1980s. It could be two production runs in a short time period?

GriffMJ 18-12-14 10:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Chris

Catalogue number: - INS 2517
Production date: 1968
Materials Badge: anodized aluminium
Belt plate: chrome
Split pin: brass
Alternative Names:-
FULL NAME: badge, standard pattern, 17th/21st Lancers
SIMPLE NAME: badge, waist belt: British

Category uniforms and insignia

Physical description
badge, 2 part belt plate, split pin, label, card, lead seal badge: a pair of crossed bones with a skull superimposed thereon; resting on lower portion of the crossed bones a small scroll inscribed Or Glory; badge attached to waist plate by split pin

Label: stamped Standard
Pattern No. 19880
Specification: UK/ISC/208E for Plates & UK/ISC/2124D for Badges
Catalogue No. 8455.99.132.0202; inscribed,
Plates:
Waist: Belt CP. 17th/21st Lancers; approved 3/4/68 (signature illegible); further inscribed NV/322/018
Card: headed O.H.M.S.; inscribed Sample Plate, Waist Belt, Chromium Plated, 17/21 Lancers
Seal: one side bears the arrow mark and the letters ISC; the other bears the numeral 1
Embossed: OR GLORY

So.... given the above..... production time and then eventual delivery.... when do you think they actually got "into" the Regimental Stores? BTW Firmin did one of these as well....

I suspect the new chrome motto for the waist belt made in the second Gaunt production (Firmin didn't do one, but LB&BCoLtd did in the late 1980s) was to compensate for the breakages the regiment was getting through ....because of those weak loops and also the dulling of the face of the AA motto with scratches etc. It probably had a new NSN assigned to it because of the new material?

Dave Alexander 19-12-14 12:58 AM

For what it's worth, we were issued staybrite mottoes in '64. Those few who wore them soon changed back to the white metal as the AA became so scratched within a week that they looked black. We were told never to wear them on guard mounting, only on the tank park. Most of them were just tossed in a drawer and forgotten about. It was a matter of pride to polish the motto every day with brasso and cardboard finishing off by picking the teeth and cleaning the eye sockets with a wooden match.

GriffMJ 19-12-14 09:09 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Alexander (Post 290610)
For what it's worth, we were issued staybrite mottoes in '64. Those few who wore them soon changed back to the white metal as the AA became so scratched within a week that they looked black. We were told never to wear them on guard mounting, only on the tank park. Most of them were just tossed in a drawer and forgotten about. It was a matter of pride to polish the motto every day with brasso and cardboard finishing off by picking the teeth and cleaning the eye sockets with a wooden match.

Thanks Dave, I don't doubt an early production..... but I would be inclined to believe that it was Smith & Wright Ltd that did it :) BTW, can you remember when you "actually" got the new Regimental chrome Waist belt plate with the AA Motto attached?

This Motto attached being the first of its kind in the Regiment.


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