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jeanpit-frenchy 16-07-10 06:06 PM

master gunner - royal artillery
 
1 Attachment(s)
found in EBAY uk

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PAIR-ROYAL-ART...item483b5351b3


for me crossed guns only with crown or star, impossible with royal arms ....:eek:

assistant gunnery instuctor or skill at arms badge ......

may be i forget something somewhere !!!



what did expert think about that

grumpy 17-07-10 05:10 PM

AO 309/ 1918:

Master Gunner First Class Royal Arms and wreath and gun [not guns]

Second Class no wreath

54Bty 17-07-10 05:39 PM

The badges shown would have been worn by a 'Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery' with the rank of WOI, 1915-1963. Nothing to do with 'Master Gunners'.

jeanpit-frenchy 18-07-10 06:13 AM

thank you for help....

so , badge of WO1 gunnery instructor .... the crossed guns are worn on the right arm only, below the rank of warrant officers ;)

Toby Purcell 17-10-10 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54Bty (Post 75369)
The badges shown would have been worn by a 'Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery' with the rank of WOI, 1915-1963. Nothing to do with 'Master Gunners'.

Not so according to the RA Institute, who wrote an article on the subject. For a period during and after WW1 the appointment of WOs 1st Class of the RA/RHA/RFA/RGA was "Master Gunner". This later changed to "Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery", but I do not recall the date when this change took place.

54Bty 18-10-10 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell (Post 86358)
Not so according to the RA Institute, who wrote an article on the subject. For a period during and after WW1 the appointment of WOs 1st Class of the RA/RHA/RFA/RGA was "Master Gunner". This later changed to "Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery", but I do not recall the date when this change took place.

Do you have a copy of the above, I would love to see it. Master Gunners and Instructors of Gunnery were and are two different things.

Eddie Parks 18-10-10 05:07 PM

This thread has been puzzling me because while I would automatically defer to 54Bty on most things Gunnery something was niggling at me. This afternoon i remembered where my 1968 YOs notebook was and had a look. And there it is under a heading Gunnery Staff: IG - officer - red SD hat band on exercise; Master Gunner - WO1 - white SD cap cover; Ack IG - WO2 -ditto.

Inconclusive I know.

I am not sure when Ack IG changed to SMIG, but it seems to me it would have been mid to late 70s.

Eddie

Toby Purcell 18-10-10 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54Bty (Post 86383)
Do you have a copy of the above, I would love to see it. Master Gunners and Instructors of Gunnery were and are two different things.

I'm sorry, I do not have it, but I read it with care whilst based at Woolwich. I know you are a Gunner, and a very knowledgeable one at that, and I would not have dared contradict you unless I was sure about both what I read and the veracity of its source.

It seems that the Sergeant Major School of Gunnery (WO1) and Battery, or Company Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery (WO2) were introduced and replaced the Master Gunners of the Gunnery Staff (only) in Oct 1918, leaving non-Gunnery Staff Master Gunners 1st and 2nd Class, (WOs1) and Master Gunner 3rd Class,(WO2). see following AOs.

Toby Purcell 18-10-10 05:58 PM

Here are the AOs concerned:

Toby Purcell 18-10-10 06:01 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Relevant AOs of 1915 and 1918 respectively.

54Bty 18-10-10 06:51 PM

MASTER GUNNERS

Master gunners have existed since about 1540, employed under the Master Gunner of England, to take charge of the guns, ammunition and stores in some of the English Forts. A Master Gunner of the Trayne is listed in a Trayne of Artillery drawn up to resist the invasion in 1688, with a pay of five shillings, also two mates at three shillings each. They were incorporated into the Royal Regiment of Artillery some time after 1815 (Ordnance Office correspondence dated 1825), they were responsible for maintaining and accounting for the equipment and stores used by Coast Defence and later Anti Aircraft Defence. Master Gunners were Non Commissioned Officers until becoming Warrant Officers in July 1882. When the Coast and Air Defence Branches ceased to exist in 1956 the title ‘Master Gunner’ was kept by replacing the ranks of Warrant Officer Class I Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery by Warrant Officer Class I Master Gunner Class I, and Master Gunner Class II.

Badge of Rank and Appointment

1860/1864 Master Gunner, none or a Crown over a Gun, distinguished by their Officer style uniform and cocked hat.

1881 Master Gunner 1st Class Crown over a Gun, Master Gunner 2nd Class Crown over a Gun, Master Gunner 3rd Class a Gun.

1915 Master Gunner Class 1 (Warrant Officer Class I) Crown in wreath over a Gun, Master Gunner Class 2 (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms over a Gun, Master Gunner Class 3 (Warrant Officer Class II) a Gun.

1918 Master Gunner Class 1 (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms in wreath over a Gun, Master Gunner Class 2 (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms over Gun, Master Gunner Class 3 (Warrant Officer Class II) Crown in wreath over a Gun.

1963 Master Gunner Class 1 (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms in wreath over a Gun, Master Gunner Class 2 (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms over a Gun.

c1980 Master Gunner Royal Artillery (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms over a Gun.

2008 Master Gunner Royal School of Artillery (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms in a wreath over a Gun. Master Gunner Royal Artillery (Warrant Officer Class I) Royal Arms over a Gun.

Not to be confused with; Instructor in Gunnery, Assistant Instructor in Gunnery, Sergeant Major Instructor in Gunnery, Assistant Instructors of Gunnery, Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery and Sergeant Major Instructor, Gunnery. All of which wore Crossed Cannon barrels (1864-c1902) and Crossed Gun barrels (c1902-) as part of their badge of Rank.

Toby Purcell 18-10-10 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54Bty (Post 86433)
MASTER GUNNERS

Master gunners have existed since about 1540, employed under the Master Gunner of England, to take charge of the guns, ammunition and stores in some of the English Forts. A Master Gunner of the Trayne is listed in a Trayne of Artillery drawn up to resist the invasion in 1688, with a pay of five shillings, also two mates at three shillings each. They were incorporated into the Royal Regiment of Artillery some time after 1815 (Ordnance Office correspondence dated 1825), they were responsible for maintaining and accounting for the equipment and stores used by Coast Defence and later Anti Aircraft Defence. Master Gunners were Non Commissioned Officers until becoming Warrant Officers in July 1882. When the Coast and Air Defence Branches ceased to exist in 1956 the title ‘Master Gunner’ was kept by replacing the ranks of Warrant Officer Class I Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery by Warrant Officer Class I Master Gunner Class I, and Master Gunner Class II.

Not to be confused with; Instructor in Gunnery, Assistant Instructor in Gunnery, Sergeant Major Instructor in Gunnery, Assistant Instructors of Gunnery, Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery and Sergeant Major Instructor, Gunnery. All of which wore Crossed Cannon barrels (1864-c1902) and Crossed Gun barrels (c1902-) as part of their badge of Rank.

Very interesting and an extremely comprehensive resume of the chronology.

Given that the BSMIG/CSMIG are not shown in the AO as WOs in 1915, I can only assume that they were still graded as 1st Class Staff Serjeants at that time and then subsequently added to the body of WOs2 in 1918. What do you think?

54Bty 26-10-10 02:27 PM

ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR IN (OF) GUNNERY

1864-1881

Assistant Instructor in Gunnery
Worn above the elbow, a crown over a field gun above four chevrons point down with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

1881-1915

Sergeant Major Instructor in Gunnery
Worn below the elbow, a crown over a field gun above four chevrons point upwards with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

Quarter Master Sergeant Assistant Instructor in Gunnery
Worn below the elbow, an eight pointed star over a field gun above four chevrons point upwards with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

1902-1915

Battery Sergeant Major Assistant Instructor in Gunnery
Worn above the elbow, a crown over a field gun above three chevrons point down with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

Sergeant Assistant Instructor in Gunnery
Worn above the elbow, a field gun above three chevrons point down with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

1915-1918

Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery (WOI)
Worn below the elbow the Royal Arms above crossed gun barrels.

Assistant Instructor of Gunnery (WOII)
Worn below the elbow a crown above crossed gun barrels.

1918-1938

Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery (WOI)
Worn below the elbow the Royal Arms above crossed gun barrels.

Assistant Instructor of Gunnery (WOII)
Worn below the elbow a crown in wreath above crossed gun barrels.

1938-1947

Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery (WOI)
Worn below the elbow the Royal Arms above crossed gun barrels.

Assistant Instructor of Gunnery (WOII)
Worn below the elbow a crown in wreath above crossed gun barrels.

Assistant Instructor of Gunnery (WOIII)
Worn below the elbow a crown above crossed gun barrels.

1947-1963

Sergeant Major Instructor of Gunnery (WOI)
Worn below the elbow the Royal Arms above crossed gun barrels.

Assistant Instructor of Gunnery (WOII)
Worn below the elbow a crown above crossed gun barrels.

1963-1980

Assistant Instructor of Gunnery (WOII)
Worn below the elbow a crown above crossed gun barrels.

1980-

Sergeant Major Instructor, Gunnery (WOII)
Worn below the elbow a crown above crossed gun barrels.

grumpy 26-10-10 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=54Bty;87353]ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR IN (OF) GUNNERY


1881-1915

Sergeant Major Instructor in Gunnery
Worn below the elbow, a crown over a field gun above four chevrons point upwards with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

Quarter Master Sergeant Assistant Instructor in Gunnery
Worn below the elbow, an eight pointed star over a field gun above four chevrons point upwards with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

1902-1915

Battery Sergeant Major Assistant Instructor in Gunnery
Worn above the elbow, a crown over a field gun above three chevrons point down with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

Sergeant Assistant Instructor in Gunnery
Worn above the elbow, a field gun above three chevrons point down with on the chevrons the AIG badge of a crown over crossed cannon barrels above a flaming grenade.

I am NOT an expert on RA badges of rank and appointment, more of a generalist.

However, until 1915 QMS was a RANK in the army, badged as 4 chevrons lower sleeve, and the most senior of the Staff 1st Class, immediately below the WOs.
A soldier with RANK of QMS if APPOINTED as the unit Quartermaster sergeant added the 8 point star to differentiate himself from others. In various arms of service other badges were added to the 4 chevrons if the QMS was appointed to a specific badged post.
Now my understanding is that a QMSAiG was a QMS appointed to be an Assistant Instructor Gunnery.
Query: could he also be appointed unit QMS, and therefore wear this plethora of badges?
I have searched CR 1914, PVCN 1913, and Dawnay, and Dress of the RA, and can find no collateral for this medley of badges!

As I said above, I am no expert: if indeed there were such a badge, I will add it to my notebooks!

54Bty 26-10-10 05:47 PM

The paper was written from sources in the RA Library, RA Regs, Standing Orders, Circulars and notes in the Dress files some of which were compiled (not by me) from photographs, which I never did try to find. If that particular array of badges is incorrect then I have inadvertently continued the mistake. However I can see how such a display could come about, where the individual was the QMS and later qualified as an AIG and did not take down the star.


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