Rank of Staff QuarterMaster Sergeant
 

Requesting some assistance from the Army collectors among the membership.

I am a Navy type as such I am not that conversant with Army ranks. I can 'get around' Ok but I am not really knowledgable. thus my request...

Recently I acquired a medal with the rank in the header on it. Now I know what the rank is, & what the recipient did (he was A.P.C. - 1890's era)
but what I dont know is what kind of insignia a S.Q.M. Sergt would have worn.

Could someone illustrate the insignia & better still, show the actual badge(s) he might have worn so I know what I am looking for?
Thanks in advance,

Bryan

Bryan,

Pre-1915, I believe your man would have worn Sgt. chevrons below a crown (on upper arm). I have some reference material somewhere... I'll look it out and post shortly.

Regards,

Peter

Pre-1915, I believe your man would have worn Sgt. chevrons below a crown (on upper arm). I have some reference material somewhere... I'll look it out and post shortly.

Regards,


That is an interesting reply. Can we equate a Staff Sergeant Major with an Orderly Room Quarter Master Serjeant in the Infantry Battalion of the HAC, where, unless I have got this one wrong, his substansive rank was Colour Serjeant and ORQMS was an appointment, much the same as a Colour Serjeant in that battalion might hold an appointment of CQMS, but would wear three stipes, a grenade, crossed swords, and a crown.

The ORQMS I have in mind wore cloth badges on his cuff: Imperial Crown surrounded by a laurel wreath, over crossed swords, over a grenade.

Perhaps it was a Guards thing ?

Here we go, gents... apologies for the delay:

Attachment 39736 Attachment 39737 Attachment 39738

PJ

...And just to muddy the waters further, this circa 1883:

Attachment 39743

Attachment 39744

PJ

[Edit - Just to add to this, from what I have just read, 'Quartermaster Sergeant' came into being in 1856, but from the time of the 1881 reforms up until the Great War, most badges of rank remained unchanged. Happy to be corrected on this, of course].

Thanks Peter & John, & thanks for posting!
This is very interesting, but think I am more confused with the info & pictures supplied,

I have a pre WWI small book of Insignia I have had for yrs & yrs, but I dont know which one of these insignia would he have worn.

He had made Colour Sergt in 1885 & Qr Mr Sergt in 1888, then Staff Qr Mr Serg't in '93.

So John, are you saying Staff Qr Mr Serg't is an appointment??

Bryan

& here is another group of Serg't insignia from same book, but where does Army Pay Corps fit into this scheme?

Did they have an specific insignia worn above the Serg't chevrons?

Bryan

Interesting charts - do you think the same insignia would have applied to the RMLI? I am basically trying to confim the rank insignia for a Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry for them. There seems to be slight contradiction on the ones shown - one shows it as 3 stripes & crossed rifles above, another with crown above the rifles - then there is the added sergeant-major of musketry on one chart which I have never heard of or seen mentioned in the hierachy before?
Regards...Andy

I think we might need the services of forum member 'Grumpy' here.

Company Quartermaster Sergeants, Regimental Quartermaster Sergeants, worsted chevrons, g/m crowns, Clothing Regulations, post-Victorian & pre-WW1... :eek:


...asprin anyone?

Bryan, I don't know mate. That is one of the things I am trying to establish.

OK, I'll come clean. I had an uncle with forty years service to the crown under his belt who was an ORQMS and wore a very natty array of worcested badges on his cuff. I believe his substantive rank was C/Sjt.

At the same time I - with not much service behind me, was a CQMS in the same batallion, and my substantive rank was also C/Sjt, but no fancy badges on the cuff for me. I knew my place and was very content with three stripes and the ornaments above them.

So all this has got me perplexed too mate, I think an ORQMS is about the same as a Staff Quarter Master Sergeant, but I think the latter might be a rank, not an appointment, but I don't know. No problem, somebody on the forum will come up with the answer.

Regards,

John

I would have taken a SQM Sgt to be a Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant rather than Staff Quartermaster Sergeant the same as CQMS (Company) B QMS (Battery) although on googling I came up with this

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/staff-sergeant-major/

Peter, what is the reference book you illustrated (first one)? There's some nice illustrations there and it would be worth looking out for. Thanks for your PM; I've PM'd you back. David

David,

The book is called 'Identifying Your World War I Soldier from Badges and Photographs', by Iain Swinnerton / illustrations by Roland Symons.

With all due respect to the author, there are one or two errors within its pages, but nothing I feel would not catch the eye.

Regards,

Peter

Well I guess I opened a real discussion (or big mess) here!

But its nice to see so many responses!

I have had a look at the charts given above & come to the conclusion that Sergeants {ie: QM Serg't, OR Serg't, St Serg't, Colour Serg't, Troop Serg't etc} wore three chevrons point down, with some kind of device above, on the sleeve.

& Quarter Master Serg'ts wore 4 inverted chevrons (point upwards) on the lower sleeve with the specialty device above.

But none of the references have mentioned (Victorian) Army Pay Corps!
I guess sit was a fairly small unit?

Bryan