Engine room artificer rank clarification
 

Hi all,
Firstly I know almost nothing about RN ranks. I have a relative who served from 1909 to 1920 in the RN as an Engine Room Artificer ending up 2nd Class. Am I right in thinking this is, or is equivalent to being a CPO? I am interested in collecting the badges that he would have owned and the discussions I have read talk about PO/CPO not artificer badges. Also as he started his service as an artificer does that mean he would have always worn a peaked cap and therefore never have worn a ship talley? (Please excuse me if I have phrased that wrong - I was in the RAF although I did spend time with an MCU). Am I correct in thinking that there is no trade badge?

So which badges would he have worn?


Thanks for your consideration.

Bryan

No rate or rank badges were worn by ERA's, they wore the class 3 uniform with peaked cap , thus no ship name ribbon.
Chief ERA2 & 1st class wore the three cuff buttons to denote their rank.
I have att'd a photo of ERA's uniform worn in thr pre 1WW time frame.

RCN Bryan

Thank you very much for that clear and precise answer. One last point, he had been awarded Good Conduct badges, are these similar to the army - chevrons on the sleeve?

Thanks again

Bryan

Bryan ERA's did not wear GCB's (Good Conduct badges) & these were different from the Army rank chevrons.
They were paid for them tho & they appear on their Service records, but they did not wear them.

RCN Bryan

Hi Bryan

You beat me to it. Trust you are keeping well?

David

Navy ranks have always been a mystery to me but I love how quickly you provided the information RCN.

I had mentioned in my post above that ERA's wore no rate or rank insignia (other than Chief ERA's), the only badge you might include in your display would be the cap badge you can see the ERA's in the photo I have above post their cap badges.

It would look similar to the one I have attached below. This is the King's crown version in use from 1901. If he made Chief ERA he would have worn the CPO cap badge which is similar.

Bryan

I am managing David thanks, dealing with some major back issues but basically I am still mobile & collecting!

Hope also you are well!


Perhaps you might clarify as I am not 100% certain - in my post above - my understanding that ERA's wore the regular PO cap badge & Ch ERA's wore the CPO cap badge - is this correct for the time period Bryan has specified?

Bryan

Very complicated. They make perfect sense when you consider them in the context of a ship of the line of the early 20th century but there aren't many of those about these days to act as examples.

With RN ranks & rates a lot depends upon the time frame/period)that one is speaking about.

The Victorian era, up to 1890, had a plethora of different ranks & rates, with many of the Seaman rates having much to do with the sailing ships of the time:
ie: one sees rates such as- Captain of the Main Top, 2nd Captain of the Mast,
Captain of the Forecastle, Captain of Quarter Deck Men, Quartermaster, Bosun's Mate, etc ; there is quite a varied listing. All very interesting & usually seen on the Victorian Naval Long Service medals & some campaign medals of the time.
& of course one sees also the Civil branch ratings - ie: Schoolmasters, Writers, Domestics, Sick Berth Attendants, Stewards, Bandsmen, Coopers, Plumbers, Ropemakers, Stokers, ERA's, etc. Again quite a varied list as there were many many occupations/trades represented on an older Ship of the Line, or early Ironclad Turret ship. A later(turn of the century) Victorian Ironclad Battleship could have as many as 1000 officers & ratings on board, all with a specific job.

The Officers & Warrant Officers were ranked by the Branch they belonged to - ie: Carpenter, Boatswain, Gunner(G or T), Navigating Lieut, Staff Captain, Paymaster, Staff Surgeon, Fleet Engineer, Naval instructor, etc; again, many of them in existence at the time.

After 1890, as the Victorian Navy moves into the Ironclad age, one sees more ranks on medals - ie: PO2, PO1, & CPO instead of rates. Officer ranks were still the same until the period of the Great war when the Civil branch was gradually abolished & all Officers became part of the Military branch.

Thus on Great War medals one would see only ranks indented on the medals, ie: ORD, AB, LS, PO2, PO1, PO, & CPO. Same with the varied Officer ranks, both Military & Civil branch ranks as noted above.
RN ranks & rates remained much the same thru the interwar & 2WW period.

I cannot speak for modern era (post 2WW) ranks as its out of my knowledge zone!

& as I dont wish to get too far off topic of the original question here, I could expand this discussion on a new topic if there is the desire among members,

RCN Bryan

The one RN rank I've always loved is "Able Seacat". I just love the thought of cats being on the establishment. :)

Hi RCN,
Happy to hear more on the subject as I am still confused as I trawl the net! One thing, which you confirm, is that it is time-frame critical. I have seen on a couple of sites is that they reckon a ERA 3rd class and above is a CPO (or should I say wears a CPO uniform), but they don't narrow the time frame and another is for WW2. It certainly seems as though they attract a lot more pay even as much as double that of a seaman CPO.

Thanks again

Bryan

Bryan,

I am not 100% on ERA's but I can supply what I do know -

During Victorian times commencing circa 1860 ERA's were in 5 classes from ERA5th to ERA1st class, then Chief ERA 2nd & 1st class were added as the senior rates within the branch. The Chief ERA's wore the three distinctive cuff buttons that were adopted by all CPO's around turn of 19th to 20th C.

By circa 1884 the ERA 5th & 4th class were being phased out & ERA's came in a 3rd class entrants. Of course to get into the ERA branch they had to have completed a 5 to 7 yr Apprenticeship, usually in a civil capacity or within the Dockyards. Other skilled (Apprenticeship) trades that entered as ERA's were Coppersmith, Whitesmith, Boilermakers, Platemakers, Steamfitters, Foundry trades & similar trades. All of these trades had a place in the Victorian/Edwardian navy.

Here are some of the yearly Pay rates for ERA's in 1884-85::
ERA4 - 100/7/6
ERA3 -104/18/9
ERA2 -109/19/0
ERA1 - 118/12/6
Ch ERA2 -127/15/0
Ch ERA1 - 136/17/6
CH ERA (old system) - 123/3/10
ERA's were the highest paid ratings in the RN. When EA's(Electrical Artificers) were introduced around turn of C they rec'd the same pay scale as ERA's.

By 1914 a Chief EA or ERA was earning 136/17/6, a very respectable salary for the time & likely better than he might earn if employed in a civil job.

Compare the ERA rates with a Seaman PO/CPO rates of pay in 1884-85::

AB - 28/17/11
LS - 31/18/9
PO2 - 36/10/0
PO1 - 39/10/10 rising with service as PO to - 44/2/1
CPO - 48/13/4 rising with service as CPO to - 57/15/10

The next highest paid rating would be the CPO Torpedo Artificer at - 118/12/6,
then the Naval Schoolmaster at - 109/10/0.

RCN Bryan

Bryan, some more for you to chew on-


In the 1914 NL ERA's 4th to 1st class are equivalent to CPO in the Seaman branch, & ChERA1 & ChERA2 are also classed as CPO's.

Boy Artificers had also been introduced by this time, & presumably they are undergoing an Apprenticeship in one of the RN Dockyards.
They were paid by Year 1, Yr2, Yr 3, & Yr 4 of Apprenticeship, commencing at 9/2/6 & rising to 13/13/9.

Bryan