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-   -   Motto in a/a question (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72642)

lettman 10-03-19 12:06 AM

Motto in a/a question
 
This question has probably already been addressed on the Forum, but I'll ask it anyway. Was the Motto in a/a ever actually worn by the 17th/21st Lancers, or did it only come in with the formation of The Queen's Royal Lancers? I see in K&K that the a/a version was sealed in 1961, but I've learned never to assume that it would have been adopted by the regiment. If the 17th/21st did wear it, roughly when did it start to appear? Thanks for any help.

Lancer 17 10-03-19 03:28 AM

G'day Lettman

In short the answer is yes, the 17th/21st Lancers did wear an AA Motto before amalgamation in 1993 with the 16th/5th Lancers to form the Queens Royal Lancers.

With out getting a large box of Mottoes out, I have the last pre amalgamation set in a plastic bag and the 1st post amalgamation set in another bag and they are by 2 different makers. These came direct from the Regiment.

I will dig the bags out later and give you the full answer.

Regards Phil.

Lancer 17 10-03-19 06:14 AM

and G'day Lettman again.

Right Ive now sorted out the relevant packets of Mottoes from the shoe box.

The last 17th/21st lancers AA Motto is by Gaunt and is marked JR GAUNT LONDON LTD on the slider, I received this from the museums curator and the note in the packet is dated 1993.

The first QRL Motto has a red shadow and is marked FIRMIN LONDON and was received at the same time as the last 17th/21st as above.

I also have AA Mottoes as follows.
London Badge & Button Co Ltd, slider & ears.
JR GAUNT B'HAM, slider & small ears.
SMITH & WRIGHT LTD, slider bent up at an angle & small ears.
JR GAUNT LONDON, lugs name on the back of the OR GLORY
and a QRL Motto on a red shadow with a slider & ears, the slider has a small logo at the bottom that I cant decipher.

I hope that this helps, Mac McConnell and Griff MJ may be able to add to the above.

Regards Phil.

lettman 10-03-19 07:55 AM

That's fantastic information, Phil -- many thanks for going to all that trouble. From the list of makers and types would I be correct in assuming that the a/a Motto was in use by the 1960s?

leigh kitchen 10-03-19 08:04 AM

2 Attachment(s)
I served with a 17/21L sergeant in 1978-79, he confirmed to me that O.R.s in the regiment were issued anodised aluminium mottos but were instructed not to wear them but to buy and wear a chromed metal one.
He gave me this chromed one on 8/11/79.
My JR Gaunt B'ham and Firmin London anod als were both aquired in 1985.

altcar73 10-03-19 09:31 AM

Its interesting how these regiments (unintentionally) "muddy the waters" for collectors by issuing an MoD approved badge to their staff, then tell them not to wear it, but to go and buy a chrome (unapproved ?) version and wear that. So, from a collectors point of view the chrome version is a repro?! So, presumably the A/A badges go in the bin. Whilst I appreciate that this went on in the 1970's, I'll wager that similar practices still go on to-day. More cash than common sense?

Dave.

Frank Kelley 10-03-19 09:55 AM

I would be of the opinion that any badge worn by a serving member of any regiment, whilst on duty, in uniform, is actually an original badge, notwithstanding where the serving member obtained it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by altcar73 (Post 471644)
Its interesting how these regiments (unintentionally) "muddy the waters" for collectors by issuing an MoD approved badge to their staff, then tell them not to wear it, but to go and buy a chrome (unapproved ?) version and wear that. So, from a collectors point of view the chrome version is a repro?! So, presumably the A/A badges go in the bin. Whilst I appreciate that this went on in the 1970's, I'll wager that similar practices still go on to-day. More cash than common sense?

Dave.


leigh kitchen 10-03-19 09:59 AM

I have a Welsh Guards yellow metal badge given to me by a 1 WG In 78/79, he told me that anod al badges were issued but......... that the "metal" one had to be purchased and worn.
A ex-member of 1st Bn Grenadier Guards who served in the early/ mid 70's was surprised when I showed him a GG anod al - he didn't know that they existed.
He'd never seen the blackened "parkerised" yellow metal version of the badge having only worn the embroidered badge in Northern Ireland.
Officially authorised or not, it looks like a chromed motto is what I'd need on a 17/21L beret or forage cap worn circa 1978/79.
But what's the betting that another 17/21L veteran who served at that time will remember that anod al badges were worn?

mac mcconnell 10-03-19 09:59 AM

Motto
 
My first Motto issued in September 1980 was AA.

Best Mac

leigh kitchen 10-03-19 10:11 AM

Noted - always good to have these little titbits of info.

Edit to add - I take it you weren't required to wear a chromed version instead?

altcar73 10-03-19 02:15 PM

LOL. What a minefield (no pun intended). Seems that what you wore depended on the whim of the individual themselves or what it was suggested or told he should wear, irrespective of what the MoD supplied or what dress regulations said!!

Dave.

leigh kitchen 10-03-19 02:19 PM

I must admit that as a young sprog or older coward I wouldn't be inclined to ignore such suggestions by a Guards NCO or WO.

altcar73 10-03-19 02:24 PM

[QUOTE=Frank Kelley;471649]I would be of the opinion that any badge worn by a serving member of any regiment, whilst on duty, in uniform, is actually an original badge, notwithstanding where the serving member obtained it.

That is an interesting viewpoint to take. So, if someone buys a poorly made repro. badge off the internet and wears it on his cap/beret, and I'm sure its been done many times, that becomes an "original" badge. Mmmmm.... I'm not sure I'd go along with that, but then we are all entitled to our opinion and viewpoint on these matters.

Dave.

leigh kitchen 10-03-19 02:37 PM

I feel provenance is the key as to whether such a combination is "acceptable", along with self imposed restrictions on collecting say only officially authorised insignia.
If I owned my father's cap or beret (which I don't) and he'd worn it with a locally made Middle Eastern cast cap badge I'd not be swapping badges around, nor would I on any headgear if it had provenance.

bess55 10-03-19 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lancer 17 (Post 471626)
and G'day Lettman again.

Right Ive now sorted out the relevant packets of Mottoes from the shoe box.

The last 17th/21st lancers AA Motto is by Gaunt and is marked JR GAUNT LONDON LTD on the slider, I received this from the museums curator and the note in the packet is dated 1993.

The first QRL Motto has a red shadow and is marked FIRMIN LONDON and was received at the same time as the last 17th/21st as above.

I also have AA Mottoes as follows.
London Badge & Button Co Ltd, slider & ears.
JR GAUNT B'HAM, slider & small ears.
SMITH & WRIGHT LTD, slider bent up at an angle & small ears.
JR GAUNT LONDON, lugs name on the back of the OR GLORY
and a QRL Motto on a red shadow with a slider & ears, the slider has a small logo at the bottom that I cant decipher.

I hope that this helps, Mac McConnell and Griff MJ may be able to add to the above.

Regards Phil.


The small logo that you cant make out is 'SM in a box, which stands for SHAW MUNSTER (actually the Shaw Munster group). There are only a limited few regiments made by this company.

Additionally you are quite correct that there are multiple variations of the motto, vide badge dies, sliders and maker marks. Griff will supply a more in depth explanation.

Regards all

Bess


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