Canadian Engineeers/ Signals
 

I saw something today that I've never seen before and can't find a reference on. I was on a business call and was talking with an elderly gentleman and the conversation got around to the CEF and the first world war. He mentioned his Dad was a CEF veteran and that he had a badge around somewhere. After awhile he managed to find it. It was a Canadian Engineers collar but it also had a scroll underneath that read Signals. This scroll was part of the badge and not an add on. Birks maker marked on the back. His dad was a SPR and his discharge papers had him with the Canadian Cavalry Brigade Signals. Anyone have any info on this collar.... thanks Jim A

I've seen them before, but I know nothing about them being worn.

Phil

Wracking my brain here, but I believe that was a very early Signal corps badge, before signals was separated and formed as a permanent corps.

Canadian bronze Signal badge
 

Is this the badge you are referring too? If so I believe it is a sweetheart badge, but am always open to suggestion or fact. It has a pin on the back if I recall correctly. It is some where deep in my collection.
Quicksilver

Just realized I was trying to attach a 2 meg Tiff and it wont take it. Here is a black and white copy from The Royal Corps of Signals Supplementary Volume. Same badge and if any one wants a tiff copy send me your email address.
Quicksilver

Yes... that's the one although the picture doesn't really show the voiding between the scroll and badge.... 4 points of attachment if you get my meaning... thanks

Engineer/Signals badge
 

Bill A.--"Wracking my brain here, but I believe that was a very early Signal corps badge, before signals was separated and formed as a permanent corps".

Well it may be an engineer Badge - but it is NOT a SIGNALS badge!

the Canadain Signal corps (CSC) was formed in 1903. It was tasked with communication responsibilities that were previously held by the Engineers. the engineers retained some communications responsibilities up to the end of WWI. Kind of like two Corps doing parts of the same job.

During WWI, CSC formed the bulk of the communications structure for 1Div, as the war progressed the other Div also had signal companies but they were Engineer based. CSC ran the signals school in the UK and CSC members served in the various Signals companies throughout the CEF.

I have seen several examples of this badge (in various forms). some look like a collar badge some are in the form of a sweetheart. I take these badges as a section/employment badge, not official and most likley were made for Engineers that were employed as Signals.

Is the badge for sale????????????

Hi Larry, The Signal Corps formed in 1903 was the militia component, the permanent force component was not authorized until 1919.
In theHistory of The Royal Canadian Corps of Signals there is an outline of the units organized pre 1914. On page 6 & 7 there is an explanation of the troops, sections and detachments. Most of these were were attached to various Canadian Engineer Field Coys. IIRC, that was the origins of the CE Signals badge, (as I was informed). This may be incorrect, but that is the essence of the provenace. The CE Signals badge was represented to be a pre war issue. Again, pure speculation, but added this to clarify my vague memory.

Canadian Engineers/Signals
 

Quicksilver has one of these badges. I know he has becasue some while ago probably over a year he out bid me for it on Ebay!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers

Chris Walker

You are correct bill on the formation of the CSC/CCS/RCCS. That badge (pin??) is a Engineer Badge showing "Signals" employment -thrust-use (??????). It is a variation within the engineer world, it is not a Signals badge.

Jim A. Your question is most interesting as it raises a number of other questions. I feel certain that the gentlemen who have responded already are on the right track. For my part I would like to mention that in the official corps history edited by John Moir, it states on page 10 that on 10 April 1915 the signal troop of the canadian cavalry brigade which had crossed with the first contingent as Div Mounted Troops was formed at Canterbury England from British Royal Engineers. It joined the bde in France in June 1915 having one officer and 23 other ranks. The unit served with the cav bde throughout the war, the brit officers and men eventually being replaced by Canadians. This troop wore engineer badges. (Did all the signals in 1 Div have engineer badges or did they wear their CSC etc badges in France too? It is true that there was an independent signalling corps in Canada and it is true that there were engineer signals and artillery signals too. What were signals? Simply put, telegraph, telephone and semephore trades. It appears that the Signalling Corps was mainly involved with flags (semamphore) helio, and to a lesser extent telephony and telegraphy (morse). They provided many trained signallers for 1 Division that went overseas and taught regimental signalling for the battalions. The various histories state that the Canadian Engineers kept responsibility for telegraphy and most of the telephony during the First World War.
I suspect that the badge referred to in the beginning of this set of emails was made up after WW1 for those that served. Perhaps some one can prove me wrong with photographic evidence of when it was worn. Also I note that the word SIGNAL is used on the scroll. While the words SIGNAL SERVICE or SIGNAL CORPS was used throughout the Empire in WW1, The use of the single word SIGNAL was a term used in the 1920s in Canada and the US Signal Corps.
Apart from 1 Canadian Div all the others were def C.E. Signals and I suspect much of 1 Div. albeit with a strong overlay from the orignial non engineer signals units in Canada that volunteered in 1914. No doubt the Canadian Post Office would have provided a huge amount of telegraph operators and linemen directly as CE Signals. As a final note, just about all of the Empire Signals were Engineers but a sub department. In fact in the British Army Signals became a bigger group than the Engineers proper, although referred to as the Engineer Signal Service. They wore engineer badges but had the white over blue arm bands.
An interesting book to read other than the Moir book is Where it Began, 721 Communication Regiment and its Antecedents, 1904-2004 by J T Spears.
Quicksilver