Irish Guards Cloth Title WWII ?
 

Hi all

Would this be a WWII era manufactured cloth title.

If so, I've noticed a fair few titles with that coloured tight gauze(cloth ?) backing.
Also rounded ends is that WWII / Post WWII or both.

Still trying to learn the nuances.

cheers

Phill

Phil,

Rounded ends on cloth titles is typical on guards titles. Gauze backing was used in many periods.

Phill,
I have two of these both with serifs, the one on the left came from a respected eBay dealer described as WW2, this is similar to your example. The one on the right is tighter trimmed with slightly narrower wording, this was bought from a trusted dealer who said it came from WW2 collection, they are most likely from different manufacturers and as Jerry says about the gauze they may be from different periods.
I have no concrete provenance and would be interested myself if anything stands out as WW2 period (difficult I know)
Paul

Thanks Jerry/Paul

I have noticed that colour(brownish) backed tight gauze(cloth?) on many titles but don't have the experience of collecting cloth titles.

I don't know if there was a cross over period where they were issued and used(ie like para wings), as seems to be the case when trying to determine WWII manufactured era to c 1950 period unless you have provenance.

If there are any more opinions would like to know.

Much appreciated guys.

Phill

I have no Irish Guards titles, but one for the grenadiers and two for the Welsh.

The grens and one of the Welsh is C.WWII and is similar to those shown here, the other welsh example with the different backing is post WWII.

Also showing a Recon Corps pair of titles which went out of existence in 1946 which has a very similar backing to yours Phil.

Much appreciated Jerry

I'm after Welsh, Scots and Grenadier Guards for my Arnhem cloth Display.

Now I at least know what to look for!!

cheers

Phill

Being as I am a big fan of the Welsh Guards:rolleyes: I have these.
The top one being modernish the following two have Press studs which would indicate to me that they were worn by the 3rd Bn during the N Africa/Tunis campaigns and possibly later also in Italy. The two at the bottom are the same pattern as the smaller font Press studded one, not an exact science but I think indicative of WW2 type titles??? and British made.
Paul

Strangely enough I have 7 Welsh Guards cap badges, I think they must be breeding.

Thanks Jerry

As a collector we can never get enough of the same insignia we collect , fortunately we are the Guardians of History and most of us are amateurs with a passion!!

I've always liked to have , in my mind, a kind of chronology of a patch, badge like WWI , pre WWII , early WWII , late war , 1945-50 , 1950's to 60's to show variations of either manufacture, size colour , construction and of the insignia's changes and development.

With collecting US shoulder Sleeve Insignia it can get complicated due to manufacturers deliberately inputting their "signature" onto the patch and slightly changing the design from the original authorized OQMC design.

cheers

Phill

Phil

with your comment of chronology in mind, with regard to Irish Guards shoulder titles, I had the following response to a query on the same on this forum in Nov. 2007 from member 82ndrecontbp;

"The Square-End (called box end back then) cloth shoulder titles were in service with the Irish Guards through their first tour in the Desert in WW2 but so were the rounded end.

It was common for the IG to "tack" sew just the ends of the titles onto their desert shirts which arguably were not supposed to have insignia to them by design. They wanted to be able to cut them off in a hurry should some officer or tactical situation require it. This led to many of them being ripped off from daily use and wear.

There is not an official "end date" for the square end cloth shoulder titles but the square end titles were not made during the war. Existing stocks were used (keep in mind that pre-war England "stocks" of anything were LOW and quality tailors and cloth mills were plentiful so there was no reason to have loads of them on-hand). They were not uncommon but by the time the Italian campaign opened, they were already rare. All economy (p40) battledress would have had rounded-end titles.

So in short, if you were not one of the older troops in the regiment, you would likely have been issued round end cloth shoulder titles. By the time the Northwest Europe Campaign (DDay) kicked off, no square end titles were used. The Guards are fanatical about unformity and only round edged titles were used.

However - you have two good examples of wartime style and post-war titles there. Notice how much more material is at the end of the modern style title. This often leads to the mis-read of b&w photos from the war where people think they are seeing examples of square end titles worn on wool battledress.

I suggest to all IG reenactors that they clip a bit of the material off the edge of the modern repro shoulder titles to match the round style your pic shows.

Does that help? I've served as a US attache to the IG on an exchange tour and have been collecting and reading and scouring the guards museum private collection by special permission since 1990."

attached the images from that thread (I believe the thread had been deleted).

Hello Jerry,
I do think the title that is the subject of this thread does have quite a bit of age to it, certainly appears not to have been made yesterday, I have to say that I like it.
Regards Frank

Many thanks to Paul , Jerry , Frank and John.

Yes it does John and I eventually came across your post, all very helpful.

I want to add a WWII Welsh and Scots Guard CST, so this thread has helped me out in figuring out WWII era CST's.

thanks guys

Phill

Irish and Welsh Guards
 

Hi friends

Have just added these to my collection.

Following up on John Mulcahy excellent detailed response,would both these cloth titles be regarded as WWII era or pre war?

The Welsh Guard San serif is 11cm x 1cm long,The Irish Guards San serif is 10cm x 1cm. Would that be any indication of pre or WWII era?
Also following on from Johns comments , these are untouched, one would expect that if they were in the supply system they would of been rounded?Seems to have been a mix.

Hopefully these are WWII era as I have checked other threads.

All and any opinion welcomed.

cheers

Phill

Lovely things, but, very difficult to put a date upon, I think unless you have them from their original wearers, it will always be a struggle, often a case of looking at as many clear portraits of Guardsmen as you can find that are datable and clearly show the detail of the letters on the shoulder title.

Thanks Frank

I have looked at the forum and John Mulcahy's post leads me to be believe these are pre war-early war issued titles. Good to have.

I will look for rounded ones for NW Europe/Arnhem also Scots and Coldstream Guard titles.

regards

Phill