RM shoulder titles
 

Good evening

Can anyone tell me what shoulder titles were worn by the Royal Marines in ww1? Was it for example RMLI, RMA or was RM also used.

Thanks

Martyn

RM shoulder titles
 

Hi Martyn

During the First World War marines would have worn either RMLI or RMA titles. They weren't combined to form the Royal Marines until 1923, which is when they adopted the RM titles.

During the First World War there also existed a couple of other Royal Marine organisations which had their own titles - the Royal Marines Labour Corps (RMLC) and the Royal Marines Engineers (RME). And don't forget that the Royal Marines Band Service wore RMB.

Pete

I thought that they were all titled with the word "Marine", until amalgamation when the letter "s" was added making it "Marines".

Marc

Many thanks for the useful information I'm trying to put together a ww1 display on ww1 units so will exclude the regular RM shoulder title.

RM shoulder titles
 

Marc

You're right about the RMA and the RMLI - they should have been 'Marine' and not 'Marines'. Just wrote 'Marines' without thinking!

The RME and the RMLC are correctly 'Marines'.

Pete

There are many 'RM' STs incorrectly listed as ww1 on the internet.

I have one with the stamped hexagonal lugs. I have seen these lugs on ww1 titles such as Army Service Corps so they were obviously used during this period. Does anybody know when they stopped (if they have) using these types of lug? Is it likely that my 'RM' title dates to the early post ww1 period, ie 1920s?

Thanks

Martyn

It's possible that such 'RM' titles could be readjusted titles - surplus RMA and RMLI titles had the 'A' and 'LI' respectively removed.

GTB

Many thanks. I was wandering if it had lost part of it but wasn't sure as the edges are so nicely finished off but it's possible.

Martyn

I believe the correct names were

Royal Marine Artillery
&
Royal Marines Light Infantry.

This is reflected in the spelling on the respective buttons (pictures attached below)

Small sized shoulder titles (approx. 12mm tall) were worn by officers and are found for the RMA, RMLI, RMB and RME, each in gilt or bronze.

Large titles (approx. 18mm tall) were used by other ranks and are found in gilt for SNCOs and gilding metal for others.

These were the titles worn in WWI and there was also RMLC for Royal Marine Labour Corps and RMSM for Royal Marine Submarine Miners but I have only ever seen these latter 2 units in the larger 18mm size. RM titles were not introduced until after the amalgamations of 1923. As GTB has stated some of the excess stock of RMLI & RMA shoulder titles were converted to RM by the removal of the excess letters and repositioning of the lug (example shown below)

Many thanks for all of that Paddy that's brilliant. Those are some very nice titles. Here is mine that may have been converted.

Marine or Marines.
I've never bought the arguments for and against either answer. It became a debate after WW2 that led to a Royal Marines Routine Order being issued in 1951 stating that Royal Marines should be used. Frequently it is quoted that the RMA used Marine and the RMLI used Marines. However, the early RMA buttons use Marines and contemporary records used either Marine or Marines without much consistency.

The RMHS even published an article on the 'Ubiquitous S' written by Alastair Donald - he and I discussed it at length, and even following those conversations I was still left with no idea why people are so interested in this 's'.

John

Just found Alastair's notes that perhaps add to the confusion but give a lot of background;

THAT UBIQUITOUS ‘S’
There seems to be constant confusion these days as to whether or not there should be a terminal ‘s’ in the titles of the Corps and it’s units, past and present. Perhaps an explanation will help to correct some of the errors that might be made in the future.

An Order-In-Council dated 18th August 1804 authorised the formation of artillery companies as part of the Royal Marine Forces “under the denomination of ‘Royal Marine Artillery’.” The Corps was granted the title ‘Light Infantry’ in 1855 and for a short period the title was ‘Royal Marines, Light Infantry’. In fact even in 1893, when the first (and only) volume of a “History of the Royal Marine Forces” was published, the author was still styled ‘Major L Edye, Royal Marines, and Light Infantry’. The buttons of the RMA always read ‘ROYAL MARINE ARTILLERY’ [sic]. However, in the Light Infantry, the buttons and the officers’ undress white belt locket (worn until 1905) always read ‘ROYAL MARINES LIGHT INFANTRY’ – right up until 1923 when the Corps was amalgamated and the ‘ROYAL MARINES’ button was introduced! In consequence in the mid 1960s there was a strong following by many of those of us interested in Corps history, who thought that the correct title was in fact ‘Royal Marines Light Infantry’. This was then reflected in most of the ‘historical’ writing undertaken in the last four decades and in a very short time this view was generally accepted in the Corps. However there were a number of retired officers, particularly those belonging to old established RM families, who considered that ‘Royal Marine Light Infantry’ was correct, and this has proved to be so. The Order-in-Council dated 21st March 1862, when the RM Artillery became a separate Division and officers of the RMA and RMLI were placed on separate lists, the latter was quite clearly referred to as the ‘Royal Marine Light Infantry’. This is also how it is headed in Royal Marine Officers Lists published subsequently.

Just after the Second World War ended, in order to establish uniformity in the titles of RM units, an order was published in November 1945 stating that the words ‘Royal Marines’ were to be placed after the designation of a unit. 40 Royal Marine Commando became 40 Commando Royal Marines and the Royal Marine Infantry Training Centre was to be known as the Infantry Training Centre Royal Marines. Between 1942 and 1945 the titles of RM Commandos were often written as 40 (Royal Marine) Commando or 40 (RM) Commando.

The woven RM Commando shoulder title has always been ‘ROYAL MARINES COMMANDO’, because originally the title ‘COMMANDO’ was an additional straight Cash’s tape, sewn immediately below the existing straight shoulder title, ROYAL MARINES, whilst above was a matching woven unit numeral. When a complete curved woven title was later produced it was natural that it should read ‘ROYAL MARINES COMMANDO’. The exception to this was ‘46’ who had their own curved title, 46 ROYAL MARINE COMMANDO, manufactured complete with numeral. [this point will interest a few of us]

In 1951 a Royal Marines Routine Order directed that in future the adjective ‘Royal Marines’ would be used instead of ‘Royal Marine’. This meant that whereas some of us had been Royal Marine Officers and used to live in a Royal Marine Barracks, we then became Royal Marines Officers and lived in a Royal Marines Barracks. Many of those serving at the time found this new nomenclature difficult to accept and in fact some never have! This was borne out when it seems to have been necessary to repeat it in RMROs in 1972.

It is of course grammatically incorrect, but nevertheless a common error, to use “RMs.”
A J D

Paddy

Many thanks for that very thorough and informative contribution to the thread. An apt example of condensed research and collecting.

GTB

Very interesting and thorough. Thanks for the informative contribution. Never really given it much thought.

Martyn

RMA buttons
 

Still a little confusing for me! My earliest RMA buttons simply say "Royal Marines" around the top of the button between the ends of the laurel wreath and with a fired grenade either side of a fouled anchor, which is surmounted by a "Victorian" crown. The back mark is Doughty & Son, London. I also have "Victorian" crown buttons with surrounding wreath about a belt imprinted with Royal Marine Artillery around a fouled anchor, flanked by fired grenades (various maker's marks). Then I have ones with no crown, wreath all around a belt inscribed Royal marine Artillery surrounding an anchor laid on the rope (un-fouled?) and one very similar to this with anchor laid on the rope except the trailing end of the rope is laid on the left fluke of the anchor. Also the "crossbar"? Of the anchor is angled upwards going from left to right. I can supply pics if anyone needs them. Best regards, D.J.

It is confusing. I also have some Royal Marines pewter and artillery brass buttons from the Victorian period and slightly earlier with marine/marines. There seem to be lots of variations over time.

Martyn