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sapper533 07-12-17 06:18 PM

Indian Infantry badge queries
 
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Hi folks
Sorting out som Infantry badges and realised I didn't know too much about the following badges.

1. 10th Baluch Regt, is this a cap badge or a collar badge?
2. A previous thread shows this as a post 1947 Frontier Force Regt badge. But I read that the 3rd/12th Frontier Force Regt was made Royal in 1935 could this be their badge?
3. 1st/7th Dogra Regiment is this a cap or collar badge?
4. Again a previous thread says that this is the badge worn post 1947 by the Frontier Force Rifles because it doesn't have a number on it but Regiments lost their numbers in 1945 so could this have been the new badge issued then?
5. 17th Dogras is this a cap or a collar badge?
Cheers
Sean

Wmr-RHB 07-12-17 09:33 PM

Re 2.

I doubt that because 3rd Bn (former 3rd Regiment of Sikh Infantry, PFF) never was connected to the PoW. Thus why should they switch to a badge with PoW feathers on becoming Royal?

The 1st Bn was PoWO since 1921.

peter monahan 08-12-17 02:48 PM

The 12th FFR wote the bugle badge with a '12' in the center and 'F.F. Rifles' on a scroll flanking the numeral. In '47 it went to Pakistan as the FF Regiment. Given the uncertainty and a fair bit of evidence that IA units wore the pre-Independence badges for some time after Independence, in some cses at least, i think it unlikely that the 12th were authorized a new badge in '45.

Perhaps and officer's collar dog?

sapper533 14-12-17 08:43 PM

Any one else have any info on the other badges?

peter monahan 15-12-17 01:31 PM

I'd guess that most are cap badges, which are often smaller for IA units than British ones. Collars were not common to OR uniforms, as far as I've been able to tell, in either WW.

Khyber 16-12-17 03:15 AM

To repeat above,
Most seem to be cap badges. Difficult to tell, but yes the IA badges tend to be a little smaller and often hard to say if cap/collar unless you have exact size for comparison.

sapper533 16-12-17 08:12 AM

Thanks for that Khyber, can you confirm if the Frontier Force Rifles badge and the Frontier Force Regiment badge are post independence or not.
Cheers
Sean

peter monahan 16-12-17 02:47 PM

Post Independence badges eventually came to use the Lions of Ashoka in place of the Crown, though some units did not make the change until at least 1950, when India became a Republic and almost certainly later than that in a few cases.

Wmr-RHB 16-12-17 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapper533 (Post 430251)
.... are post independence or not.

Like Peter already points out, do not let you lure by the usage of "pre/post independence" into the assumption that the moment that India and Pakistan became independent is a very important moment in history for a badge collector. All the regiments continued to exist (however many companies/squadrons were transferred to other regiments), George V was still the sovereign of both countries. Regimental titles and badges were not changed in general. (The only change I know of is the badge of the 15th Punjab Regiment. The Sikh companies being exchanged for Moslim ones, the quoit in the badge was removed).

The changes come when both countries became republics. For India this is in 1950 and for Pakistan 1956. From those dates on you must be aware of title and badge changes. And please take into account the time needed for designing, approving, manufacturing and distributing them to the wearers.

In fact "post independence" in the environment here on the BBF is in most of the cases a misnomer that creates a lot of confusion. :mad:

Khyber 16-12-17 04:25 PM

Agree with Peter on the Frontier Force badge. The immediate (5-10 yr) post-Independence period is a bit of a grey area. Some or probably most of the Indian/Pakistan regiments seem to have continued with the earlier British-era badges and in many cases only the crown/lion/PoW plumes were substituted by the Lions of Ashoka/cresent.

jamesmilitaria 17-12-17 09:53 PM

My two pence worth.

1 - Beret badge of the Baluch Regiment 1945 - 56. The pagri badge was much taller and officers wore a cord boss with a white metal X.

2 - 13th Frontier Force beret regiment - I can't remember which battalion wore this version but I think it is a late/post war introduction.

3 - 17th Dogra. Hat badge worn by one or more of the battalions possibly on the side cap.

4 - Post war 13th Frontier force beret badge

5 - 17th Dogra beret badge.

Few Indian Army regiments had collar badges except officers on service dress and mess kit and even then only some. None of these are officers badges. Some regiments did not wear badges on their pagri. This changed when the GS beret - often cotton, came into use towards the end of the war and post war.

I would say that all of these badges are late or post war.

As I said just my two pence worth.

James

sapper533 17-12-17 10:05 PM

James you're a star mate, that's reAlly helpful
Merry Christmas
Sean

sapper533 02-12-20 08:18 PM

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I think I might have solved the mystery of badge No2

In 1922 the 51st Sikhs (Frontier Force) became 1st Battalion (Prince of Wales's Own Sikhs) 12th Frontier Force Regiment which might account for the Prince of Wales's feathers on my badge.
In 1947 it was allotted to Pakistan at the 1st Battalion Frontier Force Regiment until the amalgamation of the Frontier Force Regiment with the Frontier Force Rifles and the Patan Regiment in 1957 to become The Frontier Force Regiment. The old 1st Battalion (PWO) continues as the 3rd Battalion Frontier Force Regiment today.

I think the 1922 badge was the one shown here.

Of course please let me know if what I have written is a load of old nonsense.
Regards
Sean

Wmr-RHB 02-12-20 08:42 PM

The lineage of the 51st Sikhs is here: 12th Frontier Force Regiment.
At the end you can click to go to the modern Frontier Force Regiment.

sapper533 02-12-20 09:21 PM

That's great Henk many thanks


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