Pre-1890 Marksman Badges?
 

I decided to start this thread after discussion with members on this forum including Bryan (RCN), I do hope you don't mind me quoting you here Bryan and sharing one of your photos.

It is understood that the first mention of Royal Navy marksman (or good shooting) badges appears in the 1890 uniform regulations with three grades, crossed muskets, star above; 1st class, crossed muskets; 2nd class and single musket; 3rd class.

The first image shows a badge which does not fit these regulations, displaying crossed muskets with a crown above and appears anachronous to the regulations anyway given the non-substantive rating badge which is the pre-1890 design for a Seaman Gunner Torpedoman 1st Class.

The second image can definitely be dated to pre-1890 and yet shows a badge with crossed muskets worn in the position of a marksman badge. The date is affirmed by Bryan, "The Photo was taken in Torquay. Now he left Sultan & the Med in May ‘83 & was at Excellent re-qualifying as SG1 & as an Instructor until Apl ‘84, then returned to the Med for the Soudan campaign, so it has to be sometime between those two dates."

His rating badge is also clearly pre-1885 design of a Seaman Gunner 1st Class which also confirms this range of dates.

So, basically, what are apparently marksman badges but worn prior to the known regulations of 1890. Does anyone have any thoughts or information on this?

Simon,

Not at all - I may have a couple more PC's of ratings showing Marksman badges, I will check & if so will post,

I don't think I have ever seen one with a Victorian Crown above the Crossed Rifles tho - that is a new one to me.

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

I'd be interested to see more photos, it's certainly a puzzlement to me too!

It seems to be a puzzlement for others as well!

Just adding another and even more puzzling photo, the 2nd Class PO at left seems to have a marskman badge in a photo with a given date of 1876. The chevrons on the right cuffs of the two POs and the badge above them (a star?) for the 1st Class PO are equally if not more puzzling. I had pondered if these men might be Royal Naval Artillery Volunteers, does anyone have any thoughts? I may start another thread covering this.

Absolutely no idea why those three ratings on left & one in centre, are wearing chevrons - points up & points down, on their right arms. The Victorian RN to the best of my knowledge, has never worn chevrons on the right sleeve. This is first photo I have ever seen this occur, so obviously done - why?? No idea, but would like to know.

The two PO's on the left appear to have their rank badges on the left sleeve but its hard to make out the ranks (ie: PO2, PO1) & don't appear to have GCB's under them (ie: where they should be),

I dont think these ratings are RN - perhaps RNR, or as you mention, Artillery Volunteers, but - the officers are all wearing straight lace???

Soooooo, quite a mystery here for sure!

Bryan

Many thanks Bryan, look forward to seeing the photos, I'll start up another thread to query the chevrons. I also thought possibly RNAV purely from the high contrast of the badges, look more like they'd be a white than red.

Not red. Those chevrons appear to be either gold or white, but did RNAV wear white insignia? I must admit I know next to nothing on this unit.

BRYAN

The RNAV uniform regs of 1774 state white or silver on frocks and silver on the jackets (No. 1 dress). Otherwise badges for POs and Leading Gunners (RNAV ratings were 'gunners' not 'seamen') were to be the same pattern as those worn by the RN.

The cap tally was also to be embroidered in silver and bore the letters RN followed by a crown surmounting an anchor and then AV (as per RNVR, WRNS etc. tallies).

The white stripes/trim on collars and on white frocks was to be waved as per officer's lace.

Otherwise, as far as I'm aware the uniform was the same as that of RN ratings.

AHA!

Just found the reference in another peruse of the RNAV uniform regs.

"83. A Badge of Efficiency will be worn by men who were returned as "Efficient" in the last Annual Return of the Brigade.

The Badge will consist of a chevron of silver lace worn on the right arm above the wrist.

Men who have been five times returned as efficient may wear one star, and those who have been returned ten times may wear two stars above the badge."

"84. Volunteers who pass the examination for Trained Man, as in the Royal Navy, will be so designated, and will wear two chevrons of silver lace on the right arm above the wrist."

Marksman badges - Victorian
 

Getting back to the original Topic - Marksman badges:

Here is first image - He is wearing the 3rd class Marksman badge on his right cuff below his rate badge -- Single rifle, nothing above......

Bryan

Marksman badges - Victorian
 

Here is next one - he is wearing the 3rd class badge but with a Crown above - no idea what class this would be as not mentioned in May.

NOTE - This rifle is facing towards the rating ,unlike the previous badge I posted.

& how it stacks up against the Crossed Muskets which I will post next, I don't know..... perhaps it might denote a different kind of rifle????

B

Marksman badges - Victorian
 

Next -- rating is wearing the crossed rifles - 2nd class Marksman...

His sewing job is not all that great ,& as he is wearing red badges, it not all that clear...

Marksman badges - Victorian
 

Same badge but in gold wire....

Marksman badges - Victorian
 

Same again, but a clearer view of the muskets - this badge likely a different maker than the previous ....