Royal Canadian Regiment tails vs no tails
 

The WW2 Royal Canadian Regiment shoulder title was issued in two basic patterns. The first pattern had "tails" on both sides, as illustrated in the first image. (There were several varieties of this pattern, but all are typified by the dipping ends or tails.) The second pattern came into issue at some point in WW2, maybe early 1945? It changed the ends of the title to a angle, and eliminated the "tails".
Questions.

1. Who designed the title?
2. Why were these colours used?
3. Why was the design changed?
4. Exactly when was the change over made?

Second question. It has been suggested that the shoulder titles with the sloping "Y" is the correct WW2 title, and that titles with a straight "Y" are reproduction. Can this be verified / documented?

While I readily admit that I am not an expert on the Regiment's cloth badges, I can confirm that the use of "dark blue, yellow and black" is mentioned in the regimental history as early as 1901. Specifically, the history notes that Regimental Order No. 167 stated that "officers would wear on their helmets a silk pugaree of regimental colours (dark blue, yellow and black) in eight folds, the approved pattern being obtainable from Messrs. Hawkes & Co. London, England."

Thanks Mike, I will add that information to the my regimental title data base. The use of royal blue on titles / uniform facings is a "royal" distinction, given to regiments and corps as distinguished by the soverign. However, the yellow and black use are lost in the murky depths of time.

sealed pattern
 

I think Doug N had a sealed pattern of the 2nd typre flash that his dad showed me at Burlington.I recall it being dated 1950 so it gives some idea as to the time period of the second type.I have always regarded the vertical bordered flash(tails) as a wartime pattern and the slanted border(no tails) as the postwar type.I have yet to see photos or battledress showing the 2nd type being worn during the war.We do have a late war battledress here to the RCR to a bandsman with 21st AGHQ and it is badged with the vertical(tailed) embroidered flashes in an almost purple colour with a burlap style backing.

Good Day gentlemen,if I may add. Strome Galloway in his book "55 Axis" writes that in Sept 1940 that << ....the first issue of the flash of blue,amber,black bearing the words "Royal Canadian Regiment" was first issued to be worn on the battledress shoulders>>. Also, on p.41 of the same book he writes....orders were issued for horizontal emblazures(sic) of blue,amber and black on the left side of the helmet....
Jo

Hi Mike, The change in titles was during WW2. There is evidence in material form indicating this, but I have yet to find the documentary evidence. I have had a tunic WW2 dated, patched with the no tails variety of title and the 1 CID patches. I also have this armlet, which the vet has indicated was worn in Italy. None of this is concrete proof, but indicates that the titles appear to have been changed during the war.

Ooops..I meant GregN was the one with the sealed pattern NOT Doug.Sorry Doug.Nice brassard Bill .I have seen another one of these ,I think that Dwayne H had but had been sceptical of them as I just don't see alot of photos of them in theatre. Now seeing yours has got me thinking.The earliest photo I could dig up of the slanted 2nd type being worn is a great photo showing both types being worn and is dated September 1945.I,ll post it tonight.It is being worn by CSM GE Peppard and can be seen in the Regt History Vol2 on page 151. I'll still look for a definative dated wartime photo of it being worn although I,m thinking that if it was worn on brassards such as yours then one would think it would be of even earlier manufacture than early 1945 as the unit was on its way to France in early March 1945 and probably would have been in BD rather than aertex for the winter of 44-45 in Italy.This has had me looking at RCR flashes in photos for many years and I can't think of ever seeing a genuine wartime shot with anything other than the first pattern .There are a couple of shots that may be the second type but it just isnt clear enough.having had both wartime and Korea era BD's,the wartime examples I,ve had have the first type flashes while the Korean examples had the 2nd type both in cloth and Bullion.I,ll keep looking through stuff .....your Brassard has me really re-examining this whole matter...would be nice to put this to bed once and for all.

TAILS AND NO TAILS
 

...Interesting that the Major and the CSM have both 2nd type flashes while the enlisted types maintain the 1st type.Anyway a neat shot and earliest I,ve found yet of the 2nd type in wear.Sept 1945.I,ll keep digging through shots of these guys.I know they had shoulder titles very early in the war and have some early shots as well.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...TLESSEPT45.jpg

Here's a shot from a first aid competition held in Italy in 1945, which would make it no later than March '45.

Good images. The "tailed" titles were made in both canvas and embroidered patterns. The angled titles were only ever made in embroidered patterns.

your thoughts on these.....
 

...A couple of shots from Col Galloways collection....the first dated Sept 1944 and is of Lt. Col. Ritchie and Strome near Rimini...It appears,at least to me that Galloway may be wearing the 2nd type slanted type...maybe its the photo or my eyes but this may be some good proof of the 2nd type being used .....nice K98 too.
....Here is another oneundated as of yet but I believe 1944 as well...looks to be the Col again with Galloway and some snr NCO's and Officers.The NCO at the bottom right may also be sporting the slanted type title.Again ,maybe its the photo but it seems to be the right shape.....any thoughts??
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...titles0002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...titles0001.jpg

Perth IODE Titles...
 

.....Maybe Bill or Dwayne can answer this but I,m wondering what the date was for the IODE issue of Cdn made Perth Titles and when they were sent to Italy? I know Dwayne sent me a newspaper clipping with the story but I can't locate it.I,m starting to wonder if the RCR 2ND Type initial issue may have been something along the same line.Its just a hunch and I,m not sure if this is recall from some long gone conversation,but I think maybe next time I,m up at the University I,ll search some newspapers.Sometimes these little tidbits are hidden in the local papers. Just a thought.

The date on the second photo is September 2 1943 which would indicate very early use of this title in Sicily.The men are from "B" Company at Messina,Sicily.I,m finding alot of photos of troops with insignia in them and the 1st type flash is overwhemingly represented as the flash worn but the few images above do seem to indicate some limited use of the 2nd type slanted flash.Interestingly all of the photos of use seem to be NCO's and officers.Don't know if this means anything or just coincidence.I am going to follow up on the angle that a horde of these came from Canada from a semi private donation.This may be completely untrue but its a hunch that may bear fruit.

RCR titles
 

I have a pair of Italy brassards with the second pattern titles as well as a battledress jacket worn by a WW2 vet ( he didn't serve after the war ) ...with the second pattern titles. I've also seen other photos where it can be clearly seen that the second pattern is in wear.

As for the Perth IODE titles...these were only worn in NW Europe. The Perths did not wear shoulder flashes/plain divisional patches until leaving Italy.

Dwayne

Morning Mike et al, My observations are similar to Dwayne's. This goes back to the initial question, when did the issue take place? From what we are seeing / hearing, both titles were in wear by the summer of 1945 and it appears even earlier. Still begs the question, why the change? And what was the reason for issuing the angled pattern?
Mike I wonder if the date is correct on that image attributed to September of 1943. The one officer is wearing the khaki beret. That would be very early for that order of headdress to be on issue.
Jo, thank-you for the note on the issue of titles to the RCR. That is an important little piece of information illustrates part of the history of the cloth title in Canadian use.
There is certainly some similarity in manufacture between the Perth IODE issue and some of the RCR titles. More research needed.