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lettman 01-09-08 01:13 AM

My Canadian Cloth - 12th CTR
2 Attachment(s)
Three Rivers Regt, two embroidered items: Edwards 122 and Sexton 36b. When was the title worn?

Bill A 01-09-08 12:28 PM

Nice patch for the 12 Canadian Tank Regiment. These patches were replaced by the 12 CAR (Canadian Armoured Regiment) after the designation changed in 1943. There is no concensus on the 12 CTR tablet title.

Voltigeur 01-09-08 06:48 PM

Hi lettmen and Bill. Two photographs,not the best ones, showing the titles being worn.

Bill A 01-09-08 08:41 PM

Titles or patches Jo?

Voltigeur 01-09-08 09:53 PM

Hi Bill, well since the TRR did not wear a shoulder title until they were in the Netherlands I thought of showing the way the Canadian Armoured Corps and the Brigade patch was worn in Italy. Now, I don't known if the Brigade patch has 12 CTR or 12 CAR on these photographs. I have the (not so good) regimental history and in it there's a photograph of three privates ,in Italy dated 1943, and one man can be seen wearing the Armoured title and the Brigade patch with 12 CTR (sorry,no scanner).
Sorry I didn't make my post clearer.

Bill A 01-09-08 10:08 PM

Hi Jo, I wasn't sure if you were referring to the patch or that odd 12 CTR red on blue strip. I think Dwayne H has some information on this title.
The manner of "patching" in Italy was distinctly different from NW Europe, and your images are great examples of the system.

lettman 01-09-08 10:50 PM

Thanks, guys. Love the photos, Jo -- not something we see much of in Oz. Obviously the manner of 'patching and titling' is quite a complex issue -- makes the WW2 Australian scene seem quite straightforward!

Voltigeur 01-09-08 11:00 PM

Bill and lettman, like the great Yoda said "in order my thoughts sometimes I have problem putting".
Regards to both of you. Anytime I can be of help, just PM me.

lettman 02-09-08 12:42 AM

Many thanks, Jo. It'd be nice to see some photos comparing the way the armoured units were badged in Italy and then when they went to NW Europe.

lettman 04-09-08 02:32 AM

Bill and Jo (and anyone caring to join in),
Just a thought arising out of our exchanges regarding the RCA Medium regiments titles: is there any likelihood that the 12 CTR title I've illustrated is a fake, or does the manufacture look OK for WW2?

Voltigeur 04-09-08 12:02 PM

Good morning (here) lettman. This my humble opinion. I could consider the diamond-shaped 12CTR patch as "good" because when the TRR were formed and then shipped to the UK in June 1941, they only wore the Khaki slip-ons titles. In April 1942, the TRR took the designation 12CTR. Now, using Clive Law's book* on the subject,, in October 1942 the diamond shaped patches were approved for wear (with and without the letter designators).
During that time, all the other Canadian units in the UK were asking (demanding) for their own titles and , I supposed, orders were placed (willy-nilly) to any companies willing to make those titles, with different materials (melton or felt) with different process and finally different (or indifferent) quality controls. So,IMO, I would consider your patch as good, unless, unless someone can tell me were I went wrong. By the way, on page 17 of Clive Law's book, there is a good pic of an officer of the TRR(12CTR) wearing the patch.

*Distinguishing Patches,(Formation Patches of the Canadian Army) Service Publications

Dwayne H 04-09-08 12:20 PM

12 ctr
The strip title is a legit period piece although in all liklihood it was not worn by the unit. Despite decisions made by the upper levels of the Canadian Army, regimental commanders had a great deal of influence on what was worn. IE The Irish regiment and Princess Louise Fusiliers did not wear distinguishing patches in Italy despite the fact that every other unit in 5CAD did in 1943.

The 12CTR strip title is not overly rare...they are around, indicating that a fair number were made. My guess is that the CO looked into a design of title similar to the style of artillery units and for some reason it was not finally accepted.


lettman 07-09-08 05:30 AM

Thanks to both Jo and Dwayne for your really authoritative answers -- so good to get replies which cite sources!

rillette 30-04-13 03:41 PM

12 CTR
2 Attachment(s)

I would love to have the experts' opinion on the patch below as to being original or not, era and manufacture as it is outside of my comfort zone. Thank you!

FX Dutoy

Bill A 30-04-13 04:27 PM

Hi FX, The patch in your image appears to be the same type as in the first image. It is a Second World War patch. The pattern was authorized in the late 1942, but the existence of the embroidered pattern is a bit of a puzzle. At that time, late fall 1942, the entire insignia for the Canadian army overseas was being switched to printed patterns. The 12 CTR patches were obsolete when the tank regiments were redesignated armoured regiments in August 1943, and the patches were renamed with 12 CAR. It took sometime to get the new patches to Italy, and the practice was to issue old insignia until the stocks were depleted.

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