I'm no metallurgist, but...
 

Hi all
Not quite sure where to post this, so I'll try here, and hopefully the Mod's can move it if there's somewhere more appropriate! :)

I've gathered a few notes and questions I haven't been able to find an answer to, so hopefully someone here can answer some of them?

1) I understand that "yellow brass" for cap badges was fazed out in the 1890's in favour of "Gilding Metal", and that the main difference lies in the brass/zink ratio, with gilding metal having a higher percentage of brass? Is this correct?

2) The term "gilding metal" refers to the fact that this ratio was better suited to the process of gilding the badge, and also leads to the brass used usually having a redder hue?

3) If these assumptions are true, would that mean that "yellow brass" badges prior to the 1890's was not gilded?

4) I have somewhere a positively yellow post-1917 Army Labour Corps badge. Is that then simply due to normal colour variation in the g/m mixture? It is highly polished, and seems to be coated/sealed with a thin film (wax). This would prevent oxidation (patina) accumulation, I suppose, and explain why it's retained it's bright colour?

5) Were 1916 all g/m's ever gilded? Or would that have been omitted to save time?

6) In the pics I have two Army Medical Corps badges. One is "normally" oxidated, but retains some gild residue in the lower parts of the leaves.
The other (probably newer, since I think this pattern lasted up through WW2?) looks pristine, never worn probably, and never polished, and retains all it's gilding. Does that mean that gilding prevents/slows down the oxidation process, since the brass is not exposed?

Quite a few questions, but I thought it might be best to gather them in a single posting!

As always, any answers or input much appreciated!!

Thanks in advance

Colin

1) Yes, 2) Yes, 3) I'm fairly sure some might have been, but the process might have been more difficult? 4) All g/m badges had some sort of protective coating upon leaving the factory, which should deserve more attention on the forum, 5) Economy badges were made for OR's, only some NCO's and most Officers badges were gilded. 6) see 4.
The term gilding metal did not imply that all g/m badges were supposed to be gilded, it is just what that specific alloy, 86.7% copper and 13.3% zinc, was called. What's in a name, white metal, 64.5% copper, 16.5% zinc and 19.0% nickel was called 'German silver' which doesn't imply it was made in Germany...
BTW, I have an almost red copper GviR RE cap badge, so I'm not convinced the alloy percentages were strictly adhered to.
Sliders were to be made from brass, not g/m.
Hope this helps.

Rgds, Thomas.

Gilding metals as with most other alloys came in differing percentages for different grades and properties for operations such as spinning, drawing and stamping, most things in the past used these to make every day items like an oil lamp which could/would have used all all three to make the components for the finished item.

Thomas has answered most of your questions. For the details of the order to change to gilding metal for badges issued at public expense see post 8 in this thread...

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...al+composition

with respect to question 3 - most definitely yes, for fusiliers but, the Fusilier full dress grenades were converted to gilding metal from brass before 1881

The attached scan from the 1891 PVCN clearly showing for fusiliers full dress grenades the issue of gilt grenades (for Senior NCOs) and gilding metal grenades for other ranks.

I would need to look deeper for other regiments.

John

[QUOTE=ubervamp;344261]
1) I understand that "yellow brass" for cap badges was fazed out in the 1890's in favour of "Gilding Metal", and that the main difference lies in the brass/zink ratio, with gilding metal having a higher percentage of brass? Is this correct?

/QUOTE]

Unfortunately that's where it all goes wrong, right from the start.

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Copper and zinc are elements and alloys are mixtures of elements.

All gilding metals are brass, all brasses are not gilding metals :rolleyes:

What you are claiming to be gilt is in fact the final process in the making of badges and is not "gilding".

[QUOTE=Jim Maclean;344383]I meant "copper", not "brass" when referring to the elements, so just substitute that, and that clears up the element vs. alloy issue :)

So when is brass to be considered a gilding metal and when is it not?

I'm not claiming anything (other than not being a metallurgist). So how does this "final process" you make mention of differ from gilding in look?

There's something fundamental I'm not getting here.
I've been under the assumption that the golden "finish" you find on some badges, like the one in my first post was "gilding" or "gild" or "gilt" (These terms seem to be used indiscriminately)

I have a RFC badge which I bought from a reputable seller who described it as "retaining some it's original gilt". See picture below.
Now, is that remains of "gilt" or "finish"???

Colin

Thanks Thomas!

The definition of "gilding metal" in Merriam-Webster is;
"A brass rich in copper from which articles to be gilded were formerly made"

That's why I assumed g/m badges were meant to be gilded!

Colin

Sorry, I should have said something along the lines of "assuming" rather than claiming.

I apologise for attempting to help.

Google will actually answer most of your questions before you waste peoples time with pedantics.

Colin,

My understanding is that gilt brass, is brass that has a gold coating. Gilding (in this sense) is a finishing process. If something has a gilt finish, it has been gilded or gilt, whereas gilding-metal, is an alloy.

One is a coating process, and the other is an alloy.

Am I correct in thinking that you may be confusing 'gilding metal' (the process of coating metals with a gold finish) with 'gilding-metal' (i.e. brass)?

Regards,

JT

And off it goes into another direction as the difference between gilding, gilt, gilded, gilding metal, etc is not understood.

[QUOTE=Jim Maclean;344398]Jim

I'm sorry if I offended you?
And I do appreciate your time and help!
If my answer came across as dismissive in any way, I apologise.
I'm just trying to come to grips with the terminology.
I was just trying to establish what the definition of gilding metal was, if it has to do with the copper ratio, etc, and not necessarily an alloy intended to be gilded.
Also, I meant by not "claiming" in as I do not have the knowledge to "claim" anything - I'm just asking?
You raised a very interesting point regarding gilt vs finish, and I realised I don't understand the difference without a reference point.
Anyway, sorry again.

Colin

Ooh, Jimbo! Soooooo hurtful! Something vexing you, sunshine?

Thanks JT!

Yeah - as you can tell, I'm out of my depth here, but trying to get my head around it :)

Cheers

Colin

Not at all, Colin.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ead.php?t=1137

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=gilt+gilding

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=gilt+gilding