Monmouthshire Questions
 

These two units fought in Operation Veritable in 1945:

2nd Battalion Monmouthshire Regiment (160 Inf. Brigade)
3rd Battalion Monmouthshire Regiment (159 Inf. Brigade)

Eddie’s Monmouthshire album was very helpful, but I still have a couple of questions.

Would both these regiments use the same badge?

I think the badge with the battle honors around it is 1st Battalion, the light dragon would be First War so that leaves the darker badge. Where does it fit?

Help with determining authenticity of the badges would be greatly appreciated.

All 4 battalions wore the brass dragon badge in 1908.

In 1925 the 1st Battalion adopted this brass wreath badge and the others continued to wear the dragon.

The w/m dragon one is also attributed to the 1st Bn before 1920.

In 1929 the 1st battalion changed the brass wreath badge to the deign that you have.

Yours however is a copy. This slidered version is correct.

In that case, can anyone swap a WM dragon for a GM please
My boyhood collection of 1914 infantry has clearly got the wrong Monmouth
I don't know how to make a link to my album - sorry



The WO only got around to authorising / procuring TF badges in 1915 - 1916, thus
'Pattern 532/1915 Monmouthshire Regt GM'

Julian

Whilst the wm one has been attributed to the 1st Bn that might be because the logic was that the wreath pattern badge which was worn in WW2 was w/m. So working backwards the w/m dragon must also have been 1st bn.

In reality we know that the 2nd pattern badge was initially worn in brass for 4 years so the logic may be flawed.

So it's possible that the w/m badge was a pre war Tf badge worn in walking out by more than just the 1st battalion after all. The jury's out.

Alan

The entry for Patt 532/1915 - stipulating GM - comes from a WO tender of April 1916.
No specific battalions are noted. I suspect it was GM from 1908 - and, as we know, it would not have been changed to WM.

If anyone has a copy of

The Territorial Year Book and Directory, 1909: A handbook for the Territorial soldier and the citizen, explaining the rights, duties and obligations of members of the Territorial Force, the organisation and administration of the Territorial system, and giving an account of all the units of the force. First (second) year. 1910. Hodder and Stoughton, London.

there might be a description of the badge - though a number of entries do not have badge details ! I haven't looked at it (in various libraries) for ages.

The book states as follows:0

1st Bn. 'Dragon'

For the 2nd and 3rd Bn.'s it doesnt describe the badge.

regards

Dammit - I remember finding a lot of that !
Back to the drawing board.

Enjoyed the dialogue.

KLR, I found your album of 1914, 1916. Loved it. You have in that display a WM Dragon and in your list simply said Monmouthshire Regt. Would it have been all right if you had listed 1st Monmouthshire Regt.?

Maybe, I should be asking when was the WM Dragon first used? (The only reference I have is Gaylor 5th ed. and he writes, "1st Battalion wore initially, from 1908 to 1922, a w/m Welsh Dragon.")

Now can I assume (a dangerous thing) that the 2nd and 3rd Battalions would have worn the same badge in the Second World War and it would be a brass dragon?

Where is Eddie ?????
David

Re your question on authenticity.

As Alan stated the WM post 1929 badge is a fake.

Your other WM badge is from the F.E. Woodward die as per this genuine badge in post #4 of this thread https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...shire+Woodward , however, these and several other Woodward badges have been restruck from the original die like this one with the nortious ENGLAND slider https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-M...e203%7Ciid%3A1 . All the genuine badges I’ve seen from this die have all been in GM, indeed Woodward produced very few WM badges (I can only think of one). So in my opinion your WM badge is a restrike due to having the wrong type of slider to be a contemporary Woodward badge, generally looking very iffy - poor striking, poor rear detail, fresh looking etc - and being WM from this die.

Could you post a more straight on picture of the GM dragon please. From the shape of the ground and slider it looks like it may be the Smith & Wright badge (albeit missing voids I’d expect). Need to see the face and ears properly to make sure.

The white metal dragon in my TF album has provenance to the 1940s at the latest. It has a long slider.

Alan

I agree your badge is fine. I have a WM and GM example of the same badge in my collection.

Luke

The only other approach that I can think of is going off to the Nat Archives and look up Vol 16 (I think) of the RACD in WO 359 to see what is listed / described for Monmouth

Or, if you're really lucky, see if the IWM or NAM have the original Sealed Pattern Card. NAM has a better collection of these things.

I would be amazed if the sealed pattern was anything but GM.

Monmouthshire badges
 

Hi,
1. It’s believed the 1st Monmouthshire wore the W/m dragon 1908-1915 as they followed the traditions of the Rifle briadge and using the brass version in WW1 . But the W/m metal badge could have also been worn by the other battalions on the walking out dress, I’ve a few photo’s pre WW1 but I’m unable to confirm. ( been to the IWM and NAM seen the Monmouthshire sealed pattern cards but not for the brass or W/M dragon).

2. The brass dragon badge was worn during WW2 by the 2nd and 3rd battalions and the 4th battalion wearing the insignia of the South Wales Borderers.