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-   -   Manchester Pals (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46524)

wardog 27-05-15 12:51 PM

Manchester Pals
 
3 Attachment(s)
Interested in thought from those with knowledge of this badge- faults on the MAN letters is what I would like opinion on. Regards, Paul.
Attachment 126915 Attachment 126916 Attachment 126917

Alan O 27-05-15 01:26 PM

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=22131

Mine is here. It suffered from an unnecessary polishing from the dealer I bought it from.

The 'bubbles' on yours concern me as they may be the result of a lost wax copy being made.

If you have a set of digital scales can you weigh yours?

wardog 27-05-15 02:29 PM

Kitchen scales 11 grams.

manchesters 27-05-15 02:54 PM

Wardog,

As a long time collector of these I can add the following.

1. From the front it looks good,
apart from-
2. The bubbles? Not on my originals
3. The loops are in the correct position
4. The crud on the back makes me suspicious and should not be there.

Mine weighs 10.9g.

If its a copy then its a good one.

Would I pay full retail for it?--- No.

regards

2747andy 27-05-15 04:30 PM

Paul
From your images I would be happy with it and of all the genuine examples I've EVER seen they have ALL had differing colour finishes! I suspect they were issued in Gm and blackened locally despite what others may think?

Just my view

Andy

manchesters 27-05-15 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy (Post 310993)
Paul
From your images I would be happy with it and of all the genuine examples I've EVER seen they have ALL had differing colour finishes! I suspect they were issued in Gm and blackened locally despite what others may think?

Just my view

Andy

Andy,

I must correct you on the above.
Firstly the badges are not GM they are a yellow brass.
Secondly they have a brown bronze finish, and are not blackened.

IMHO the manufacture was done at just one factory, due to the consistency of the unusual placing of the lugs.

Also why would they not bronze finish the badges at the point of manufacture at the factory rather than send them, unfinished, to 2 Brigades of freshly enlisted men camped in newly built huts in a public park with few facilities to cook and clean, let alone start bronzing 8,000 cap badges.

regards

2747andy 27-05-15 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters (Post 310998)
Andy,

I must correct you on the above.
Firstly the badges are not GM they are a yellow brass.
Secondly they have a brown bronze finish, and are not blackened.

IMHO the manufacture was done at just one factory, due to the consistency of the unusual placing of the lugs.

Also why would they not bronze finish the badges at the point of manufacture at the factory rather than send them, unfinished, to 2 Brigades of freshly enlisted men camped in newly built huts in a public park with few facilities to cook and clean, let alone start bronzing 8,000 cap badges.

regards

Simon,
Yellow brass has not been used on UK manufactured British cap badges since the turn of last century, and you confirm my point exactly, some are brown, some black and some polished Gm! If they were all manufactured at the same outlet then how come no two appear to be the same shade!

I appreciated this is your area of interest and your depth of knowledge, however I do not share your opinion and we shall have to agree to disagree on the "Subduing" ;)

Best Regards

Andy

wardog 27-05-15 05:44 PM

Any thoughts on the 'bubbles' Andy- or the strike-I'm looking at the chain on the left beast as viewed. Regards, Paul.

Tinto 27-05-15 05:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi all,
Here's a link to a Manchester Pals badge showing yellow brass base and bronze finish.
Cheers, Tinto

Link doesn't work now, so replaced with pictures of my badges, Tinto

Alan O 27-05-15 06:00 PM

I would support the theory that they were made bz'd brass and then subject to some polishing back to the base metal afterwards. In my case by a French dealer who thought it was a dirty economy badge...

Frank Kelley 27-05-15 07:48 PM

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I've certainly always believed that to be true, however, both brass and blackened/bronze seem to have been worn together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy (Post 310993)
Paul
From your images I would be happy with it and of all the genuine examples I've EVER seen they have ALL had differing colour finishes! I suspect they were issued in Gm and blackened locally despite what others may think?

Just my view

Andy


wardog 27-05-15 08:04 PM

Are there any known copies of the Manchester Pals badge about-does anyone have one they think/know to be a copy? Regards, Paul.

manchesters 27-05-15 08:18 PM

Yes, lots of copies.

Alan O 27-05-15 08:41 PM

The badge in post 1 went for £95 so there is money to be made in casting copies.

Peter Marshall 27-05-15 08:48 PM

hi

As another Manchesters collector, I agree with Simon about these badges, yellow brass which are bronzed - I have had a few of these and still have two in my collection, a yellow brass one and one which still retains most of its bronze finish - neither have bubbles.

IMHO a good badge-

As regards the bubbles - could this not just be an inferior strike made at the time, as Simon has said they needed 8000 odd of these badges in a very short time , i dont think it is too far fetched to suggest the odd badge got through that was not perfect. (one of mine is slightly lighter than the other)

crud i on the back - 100 year old badge - where has it been kept ? etc etc - could be anything. I have badges that have had crud on the front , back and sides !

Lugs look spot on

Cheers

wardog 27-05-15 10:30 PM

I would very much appreciate images of known copies- or descriptions of known 'tells' If anyone would rather PM me that's fine. Obviously needing to make a decision on this badge. If it happens to match a dodgy version, I need to know. On the other hand it could well be as mentioned in post 15. Regards, Paul.

wardog 28-05-15 12:10 PM

Are 'Lost Wax' badges smaller than originals? Can I conform dimensions on badges held by members please? Thanks, Paul.

Alan O 28-05-15 02:42 PM

9g in weight

48mm wide from edge of tial to edge of tail and 46 mm high from centre of globe to base.

wardog 28-05-15 06:38 PM

Thanks Alan- badge weight near the same as Simon's, width is fine but I'm short 2 or 3 mm with that height- anyone else able to check on their badge measurements for me? Cheers, Paul.

Peter Marshall 28-05-15 08:44 PM

Both mine 43mm from TOP of globe to bottom of scroll

cheers

wardog 28-05-15 10:27 PM

Thank you very much Peter, that fine then. I think I am now reaching an opinion on this badge and thanks to all who have posted. I would though hope if any info. on copies/fakes of the Manchester Pals badge should be available that it could be posted here - as yet I know nothing about the copies that have been mentioned.
I should also be very interested if examples should start to appear with similar faults to my badge- when it looks like up to now this fault has not been seen.
Regards, Paul.

2747andy 28-05-15 10:31 PM

Paul,
I've yet to see a repro, copy or fake of this badge, which is constructed in a pretty unique manner!

Andy

Alan O 29-05-15 07:28 AM

Could it be that some one has had a go at reblacking the badge and the bubbles are in the blacking and not part of the metal?

wardog 29-05-15 01:50 PM

I can just catch a couple - I think there are seven, with my fingernail- and they are vey solid- they "look" like small white metal rivets-though I guess they could be very pale GM. Regards, Paul.

KLR 29-05-15 02:25 PM

Just out of interest, where does the number of 8,000 badges come from ?

Is this a recorded production figure or just a guess based in the number of men ?
Did the Manchester Pals have eight battalions !?

I'm very interested in actual production numbers. The only figures I have to hand comes from a WO order of April 1916 which includes 20,000 Manchester Regt cap badges - but these are bi-metal regular badges !
The next time I'm in town, I'll look up the manufacturers archives that I know about - but can't guarantee anything.

(By the way, I had one of these about 40 years ago thinking it was a 1916 badge, but I sold all my other Lancashire badges to concentrate on KLR ones. I remember it was 'dark' and there was a break in the lion's tail.)

Luke H 18-03-20 08:17 PM

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Interesting thread and debate which I missed first time round during my lost-weekend away from the hobby.

Great photo Frank shows in post #11 highlighting the various tones of the badges worn.

I’m in no doubt the vast majority of these in brass have indeed been polished down from bronzed > brass by the original wearers or subsequent owners. However, I’d like to throw this badge which I was thoroughly delighted to acquire recently, into the mix and debate.

It actually has what I regard as a ‘factory finish’ to it. Not the easiest to make out with my poor iPhone skills but it’s there and in daylight you can see where it’s worn around the edges and high points to the slightly duller yellow brass underneath.

I’m 100% convinced this finish is period, that it was never bronzed and the near mint appearance is not due to later polishing or chemical cleaning etc.

manchesters 18-03-20 08:30 PM

Luke,

It certainly looks like it has never been bronzed and does indeed look like factory finish, and thats probably the explanation. Taken from the factory, before it was finished as a souvenir, which happened as we know.

regards

High Wood 19-03-20 08:27 AM

Here is my very clean example that came with a 24th Btn shoulder title from a house clearance via a local auction.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=146702

silverwash 19-03-20 01:04 PM

1 Attachment(s)
not a brilliant image, under glass.

manchesters 19-03-20 02:03 PM

The last two badges are both excellent original examples.

regards

Luke H 19-03-20 07:22 PM

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I really donít believe it is a souvenir piece for several reasons.

Firstly if it was a bespoke finished souvenir I would have thought a conversion to a broach would be very likely for non-service wear or display.

Second, the condition and wear. As you can see the badge itself shows what Iíd regard as clear signs of service wear. The loops are battered and the badge itself has been purposely shaped and curved - undoubtedly to fit a cap. I strongly doubt a souvenir piece would exhibit these traits.

Lastly the period photographs Iíve seen of Manchester Pals badges being worn. Some, including one very close up and clear portrait postcard, are literally bright as buttons with not the slightest trace of darker bronzing even in hard to polish areas such as the recesses. Now these soldiers could potentially have been OCD polishers but equally I feel itís possible the bronzing isnít visible as it was never there in the first place.

Over the years I have seen a few of these badges which I donít believe to have ever been bronzed so I think itís entirely possible a batch or run was finished in a different way (mistake, altered requirement etc.) and issued. Certainly photographic evidence doesnít conflict with this and I know where I work you wear what youíre issued even if the person next to you gets a different shade/style etc. of the same kit due to different batches or manufacturers.

Personally Iím convinced this badge and ones like it were worn in service but wholeheartedly accept the Ďstandardí finish should be bronzed brass. That said I completely understand others may disagree with the above or my interpretation. I think this is potentially one of those subjects that ultimately comes down to opinion and individual views on the written record conflicting with whatís found.

Perhaps the owner of the smashing postcard will see this thread and post a picture to add to this interesting subject and debate.

manchesters 19-03-20 07:47 PM

Luke,

I have a very extensive collection of WW1 and earlier photographs of members of the Manchester Regiment of all Battalions including the Pals.

Careful study of these has led me towards a theory that I have not mentioned before because its just that, a theory, but it would go some way to explaining the badge and what you have said and another member here earlier in the discussion.

There were 8 City Battalions who undoubtedly were issued with bronzed brass cap badges, and the Platoon photographs in the Book of Honour along with my photographic reference library, certainly prove this. I am talking here about 1914 and 1915. As the war progressed no doubt the finish came off and equally many men joining after the Battalions were at the front wore standard bi-metal cap badges.

There was a further Battalion that wore the 'Pals' cap badge, and that was the 24th (Oldham) Bn, who also had their own distinctive shoulder title. As you know the City battalions had there own Bronzed shoulder titles to match the cap badge. However in the 24th the shoulder title is not bronzed and its my believe having studied their Oldham, Battalion of Comrades Book of Honour Platoon photographs and my own photographs that they wore your badge, ie - An un bronzed 'Pals' cap badge.

Its something I had discerned some time ago and forgotton about until today when you wrote about your badge and I have just re checked my notes and looked at the Oldham Platoon Photos and mine and am more convinced that this is the case.

Something for you all to think about.

regards

silverwash 20-03-20 11:23 AM

2 Attachment(s)
curiosity killed the cat. I succumbed and unscrewed the back off the frame.

manchesters 20-03-20 11:37 AM

Nice original, bronzed brass badges, showing good wear to the finish as expected.

regards

High Wood 20-03-20 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters (Post 503316)
Luke,

There was a further Battalion that wore the 'Pals' cap badge, and that was the 24th (Oldham) Bn, who also had their own distinctive shoulder title. As you know the City battalions had there own Bronzed shoulder titles to match the cap badge. However in the 24th the shoulder title is not bronzed and its my believe having studied their Oldham, Battalion of Comrades Book of Honour Platoon photographs and my own photographs that they wore your badge, ie - An un bronzed 'Pals' cap badge.

Its something I had discerned some time ago and forgotten about until today when you wrote about your badge and I have just re checked my notes and looked at the Oldham Platoon Photos and mine and am more convinced that this is the case.

Something for you all to think about.

regards

My cap badge was almost certainly worn by a member of the 24th Oldham battalion as it came with this shoulder title. Perhaps their cap badges were also issued unbronzed.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=146705


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