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-   -   The Scout Badge (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64085)

Postwarden 03-09-17 02:51 PM

The Scout Badge
 
2 Attachment(s)
A nice portrait of a regimental scout, from his cap badge serving with the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry although his shoulder title - in spite of my scanner's best efforts, illegible - appears to be straight and not curved which is what I would have expected.

The superb cloth example was recently sold at auction for a considerable sum.

Comments welcome.

Jon

Postwarden 04-09-17 02:39 PM

The heading is possibly misleading but I'm surprised that I've not had any views of this great photo.

Jon

Jelly Terror 04-09-17 02:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Postwarden (Post 419239)
The heading is possibly misleading but I'm surprised that I've not had any views of this great photo.

Jon

Jon,

You're right, it IS a great photo, and thanks for posting. You have had at least 35 views though... me included (twice :D)

Attachment 177192

I've been looking for a couple of my own to add to the thread, but this job/work malarkey cuts right into your day :rolleyes::D

Cheers,

JT

Jelly Terror 04-09-17 02:55 PM

Not quite as spectacular as the example in your pic, but here is one of mine:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=120824

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=120823

(The S/T appears to be T/6/MIDDLESEX).

Thanks again,

JT

Alan O 04-09-17 03:03 PM

Perhaps the title is hidden by the cap's chin strap in the first photo hence the straight s/t.

Jelly Terror 04-09-17 03:06 PM

Leeds Rifles:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=133291

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=133286

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=133285

grumpy 04-09-17 03:27 PM

Interesting that someone would pay "a considerable sum" for what I believe is a private purchase tailor's worsted version, however nice.

From the 1906/7 RACD ledgers, and from PVCN 1907, Clothing Regs 1909, 1911 PVCN, 1913 PVCN, 1914 Clothing Regs, and 1915 PVCN the four scout badges [large with bar, large, small with bar, and small] are only described as "brass" or "gilding metal" or "metal". , There were lots of worsted ones around and [tellingly] lots of worsted variations of course. The Gamages demi-official list of c. 1917 has both worsted and brass versions for private purchase.

If any reader has proof of official issue in worsted I would be most grateful to add it to my data base. Until such time, I have logged the above badge as a very nice "not Ordnance" version.

54Bty 04-09-17 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postwarden (Post 419098)
A nice portrait of a regimental scout, from his cap badge serving with the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry although his shoulder title - in spite of my scanner's best efforts, illegible - appears to be straight and not curved which is what I would have expected.

The superb cloth example was recently sold at auction for a considerable sum.

Comments welcome.

Jon

Westlake has a straight RWY title listed.

Marc

grumpy 06-09-17 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 419255)
Interesting that someone would pay "a considerable sum" for what I believe is a private purchase tailor's worsted version, however nice.

From the 1906/7 RACD ledgers, and from PVCN 1907, Clothing Regs 1909, 1911 PVCN, 1913 PVCN, 1914 Clothing Regs, and 1915 PVCN the four scout badges [large with bar, large, small with bar, and small] are only described as "brass" or "gilding metal" or "metal". , There were lots of worsted ones around and [tellingly] lots of worsted variations of course. The Gamages demi-official list of c. 1917 has both worsted and brass versions for private purchase.

If any reader has proof of official issue in worsted I would be most grateful to add it to my data base. Until such time, I have logged the above badge as a very nice "not Ordnance" version.

I remain hopeful that someone can demonstrate that a worsted version was official issue. Please.

Nozzer 06-09-17 05:42 PM

There is a great amount to be learnt from these period photos.

Here is my contribution to the thread. I did show it before, but it drew very little interest for some reason. A nice study of a Norfolk Regiment Lance Corporal wearing the "worsted" type of scouts badge.

I hope it is of some interest,

Andy

leigh kitchen 06-09-17 05:53 PM

Is that a "Norfolk" shoulder title worn with the R Norfolk cap badge?

Nozzer 06-09-17 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen (Post 419448)
Is that a "Norfolk" shoulder title worn with the R Norfolk cap badge?

No, it is a "Norfolk" shoulder title worn with a Norfolk OSD pattern cap badge for some reason :confused: The picture dates from the great war period.

grumpy 07-09-17 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nozzer (Post 419446)
There is a great amount to be learnt from these period photos.

Here is my contribution to the thread. I did show it before, but it drew very little interest for some reason. A nice study of a Norfolk Regiment Lance Corporal wearing the "worsted" type of scouts badge.

I hope it is of some interest,

Andy

A fine example, and it would be good to find a handle to date the photo.

Blue Puttees 08-09-17 02:25 AM

1 Attachment(s)
While not officially approved, I like the cloth version.

Jelly Terror 08-09-17 06:09 AM

Could someone please outline what a regimental scout is/was and what they did?

With thanks,

JT

grumpy 08-09-17 02:20 PM

I am sure that the need for scouting ahead of, and on the flanks of, a unit in war has always existed. On the large scale, it was a cavalry task.
On the unit scale, Baden-Powell of Mafeking and Boy Scout fame perceived a need to formalise and specialise to get the best results.

Ideally, a man appointed scout would be fit, active, intelligent, skilled at using cover,a good shot, able to make a good assessment and report accurately.
Scouts were officially integral to cavalry and infantry units.
Each unit was to appoint a subaltern as Scout Officer with a sergeant as deputy and a few junior NCOs. The best trained were appointed regimental [or battalion] scouts and received the badge with cross bar. At company level there was a small number of scouts, wearing the badge without cross bar. The badge was introduced in 1903 and discontinued in 1921, having been reduced in size in 1907.

There is some confusion regarding scouts serving in India. Native troops and most British infantry had a small S in a small wreath as an appointment badge, whereas most British cavalry wore the Home badge.

During the Great War the role embraced sniping and observing.

Jelly Terror 08-09-17 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 419664)
I am sure that the need for scouting ahead of, and on the flanks of, a unit in war has always existed. On the large scale, it was a cavalry task.
On the unit scale, Baden-Powell of Mafeking and Boy Scout fame perceived a need to formalise and specialise to get the best results.

Ideally, a man appointed scout would be fit, active, intelligent, skilled at using cover,a good shot, able to make a good assessment and report accurately.
Scouts were officially integral to cavalry and infantry units.
Each unit was to appoint a subaltern as Scout Officer with a sergeant as deputy and a few junior NCOs. The best trained were appointed regimental [or battalion] scouts and received the badge with cross bar. At company level there was a small number of scouts, wearing the badge without cross bar. The badge was introduced in 1903 and discontinued in 1921, having been reduced in size in 1907.

There is some confusion regarding scouts serving in India. Native troops and most British infantry had a small S in a small wreath as an appointment badge, whereas most British cavalry wore the Home badge.

During the Great War the role embraced sniping and observing.

Thank you very much for that.

Is this the 'small 'S' in a small wreath' badge to which you refer (approx. 35mm diameter):

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=144285

Regards,

JT

JBBOND 08-09-17 04:43 PM

2 Attachment(s)
A couple of scouts from the Monmouthshire regiment

manchesters 08-09-17 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror (Post 419673)
Thank you very much for that.

Is this the 'small 'S' in a small wreath' badge to which you refer (approx. 35mm diameter):

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=144285

Regards,

JT

Yes, thats the badge.

regards

Jelly Terror 09-09-17 08:23 AM

Excellent. Thank you.

grumpy 09-09-17 12:30 PM

Yes, that is the India pattern scout badge. It was also made in worsted, which renders pale on dark on period photos, so may be off-white on a scarlet background when worn on KD.
To my knowledge, this little badge pre-dates all the other "in wreath" badges by a few years.

Blue Puttees 10-09-17 03:24 AM

1 Attachment(s)
A Scout from the Northamptonshire Regiment.

High Wood 01-10-17 04:29 PM

2 Attachment(s)
A Welsh Regiment Scout out in India.

manchesters 01-10-17 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Wood (Post 422742)
A Welsh Regiment Scout out in India.

Do you know if its wartime and if so whether they are Regulars or TF?

Just interested in who wore the large metal badge mostly.

regards

High Wood 01-10-17 07:52 PM

My guess is that it is the 1st battalion, pre November 1914. However, it could also be one of the Territorial battalions that served in the Middle East.

manchesters 01-10-17 07:58 PM

Thankyou

grumpy 02-10-17 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Wood (Post 422742)
A Welsh Regiment Scout out in India.

Many thanks, that is very interesting because the fleur-de-lys was not for issue to British [or Indian] infantry [Indian Clothing Regs 1909], so perhaps this man [this unit?] had fairly recently arrived in India and clung to their far-superior badge[s].
Either way, a very unusual photo.

High Wood 03-10-17 07:51 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 422867)
Many thanks, that is very interesting because the fleur-de-lys was not for issue to British [or Indian] infantry [Indian Clothing Regs 1909], so perhaps this man [this unit?] had fairly recently arrived in India and clung to their far-superior badge[s].
Either way, a very unusual photo.

The photograph has had no information added and has a post card back so the date and the location are conjecture on my part. However, it has a British type divided back with the words Post Card rather than Carte Postale so I am leaning towards India rather than the Middle East. It could of course have been taken in Malta or Salonika.

Mike B 03-10-17 07:53 AM

You would think insignia of the large size and in metal would draw fire from a sniper if the opportunity arose. Personally I like the unofficial more drab version, but all credit to anyone who earned the right to wear 'Scout' insignia.

Toby Purcell 03-10-17 12:35 PM

I donít think itís India, if I recall correctly the SD cap was not issued to troops on Indian establishment, who instead continued to be issued with the field service cap in drab.

Frank Kelley 03-10-17 01:36 PM

The badge in your photograph appears to be metal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Puttees (Post 419590)
While not officially approved, I like the cloth version.


Frank Kelley 03-10-17 03:23 PM

Hello Jerry,
Absolutely fantastic images, a fellow would really stand out wearing a badge like those, is that the end of a chain and fob on the sergeants breast pocket flap, just above the button?
Regards Frank

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBBOND (Post 419674)
A couple of scouts from the Monmouthshire regiment


JBBOND 04-10-17 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley (Post 423013)
Hello Jerry,
Absolutely fantastic images, a fellow would really stand out wearing a badge like those, is that the end of a chain and fob on the sergeants breast pocket flap, just above the button?
Regards Frank

Thanks Frank, one from a set I have to the Mons at camp.

Yes to the watch fob and also he has perhaps his SA pair of ribbons up.

Frank Kelley 07-10-17 04:37 PM

Hello Jerry,
Looking at photographs on here and elsewhere, as well as examples of the actual badges themselves, I must assume that they were polished to quite a degree, by their recipients, they certainly are very attractive badges and must have got qualified Scouts noticed.
Regards again, Frank

kingsley 08-10-17 07:56 AM

Thanks for the pictures of the "S" in wreath badges, never seen them before.
I am interested only in trade and skill badges that were worn by Australian forces, which includes most if not all of the WW1 badges including the fleurdelis designs. I doubt if Australians ever wore the S pattern.

Rob Miller 27-01-18 09:24 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Its thanks to great threads like this I spotted this nice badge at a recent Antiques fair.

Rob

Frank Kelley 27-01-18 01:21 PM

A superb example!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Miller (Post 434217)
Its thanks to great threads like this I spotted this nice badge at a recent Antiques fair.

Rob


grumpy 28-01-18 04:39 PM

In case it has not been said previously, the official gilding metal badges [all 4 designs] were issued with a black [sic] felt outlining backing ....... a badge with authentic lining would be a nice find.

Paying a lot of money for an unoffical worsted badge, however pretty and well-preserved, is not for me. I have several such [none as handsome], and they are in my "curios" category.

Jelly Terror 29-07-18 10:22 PM

Worsted Scout Badge
 
1 Attachment(s)
'Official' or not, here is a superb example of the worsted scout badge being worn by a QVR scout,:

Attachment 191530

JT

Frank Kelley 16-09-18 09:50 AM

Can you post some photographs of the several you mention?

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpy (Post 434333)
In case it has not been said previously, the official gilding metal badges [all 4 designs] were issued with a black [sic] felt outlining backing ....... a badge with authentic lining would be a nice find.

Paying a lot of money for an unoffical worsted badge, however pretty and well-preserved, is not for me. I have several such [none as handsome], and they are in my "curios" category.



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