RAF 'Pathfinder'
 

This is an invite for anyone owning a genuine example of the coveted Pathfinder Badge to also post images, front and reverse, here.

It seems that many people have been sold Sleeve or Cap Eagles fitted with screw posts, tabs or lugs with a clevis pin and told they were the real deal. From discussions with former Pathfinder aircrew, the original badge was made with a long pin brazed onto the reverse. The badge could only be worn while not on operations, a stipulation that ensured that the badge was required to be fixed by a pin and not lugs, posts or tabs, as these would leave marks in the battledress blouse pocket flap and could potentially indicate to the enemy, if captured, of the squadrons elite status as target markers.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p.../cropeagle.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...ecropeagle.jpg

Hi Dennis,
Although RAF Badges is not really my field of collecting I have one or two items including what I believed to be a Pathfinders Badge.It was purchased from Steven Bosley before he began his auction bussiness so it was from a reputable dealer.
The badge as the two threaded posts to the back but lacks the retaining screws.In his book "Military Pilot & Aircrew Badges of the World (1870-Present) Vol 1 Don Chalif stipulates that the back of the badge was two post screws.I would regard the book as one of the better ones I have seen on Airforce Insignia.
Regards
Bantam

Sadly as an item worn by officers it was also a private purchase meaning it had many different manufacturers.

The way to distinguish the different between Pathfinder and cap with screw post is the length of the screw post. If the screw post is over 10 mm in length it is clearly not going to be worn on a jacket! I`m sure the fakers out there had a remedy for this!

The one I have has short length D lugs attachments. I bought in a grouping with a log book to a Flight Engineer. It has a backing plate on it.

Hi Jibba Jabba,
Checked length of screw posts 8mm with rounded end.Maker Firmin London.
I would also like to point out that another badge worn on the battledress blouse in a similar position again with the same screw fitting was The Operational Tours Badge.
Regards
Bantam

Could this then mean that the pin version would be used on the working uniform? I can see then that the screw post or lugged versions would have been worn on Dress uniforms, where it wouldnt matter if the fitting of such a badge left tell tale holes.
There has been so much talk on various forums regarding these badges, that I thought we might nail down the definitive!
Thanks for the replies so far:)

Hi Denis,
Your original question as stimulated the effect you desired.Logically though what would be the point of wearing the pin badge on the working dress when it could not be worn on operations ?I look forward to your and hopefully others contrbutions.
Regards
Bantam

Hi all,
W.Carrol, in his recent book 'Eagles Recalled' states that both pin back & 2x screw post badges were issued,for these special Airmen. The example he shows is as pictured above.I have also seen examples of both folding tabs & lugs being used on origional uniforms,in museums & old established collections. ?????
Personally ,I think this distinction was for Dress or Walking-out Uniforms only, not on a working Battledress? Even the largish pin would leave detectable marks in the pocket's material ?
Can only compare the screw post lengths with my WW1 sleeve examples that vary from 5-7mm in length.
The above book has copious amounts of good quality colour and B&W pics of badges & huge quantities of information,with a major leaning towards its Canadian origins. ;)
A little expensive & has 1 or 2 picture confusions,but worth the effort to borrow a copy ,at least.:rolleyes:

Cheers !
Steve

PS: the problem with pin-backs (WW1 & WW2) is that they were also often made,or adapted, for mufti wear/ family/ girlriends,etc......

Hi Steve,
Thanks for your input.I am in total agreement with your assessment.
Hwyl
Bantam

My father's Pathfinder Badge has the threaded type of attachment.

I don't know whether aircrew wore the badge on ops or not, however the R.A.F.'s attitude is apparent from the attached letter to my mother from my father's commanding officer. My father at the time being a P.O.W.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...hOctober43.jpg

Hi David,
Thank you very much for sharing that wonderful document with us.Really appreciate it.
Regards
Bantam

Thank you for sharing that document.

Denis
I have a few examples from my father-in-law's keepsakes. He flew 67 Ops with Sqn 109. I have one with scew popsts and backing plate along with one with bendable prong tabs brazed to the back. I also have what I believe to be his Officer's Wedge Cap pin which has a very similar if not identical to the Pathfinder eagle. The Cap pin is accompanied by a separate crown which is placed just above the eagle, both with screw posts and common back plate. Can you or others comment on the similarity of these two metal eagles?
Bob
P.S. I could not attach my images to tyhis note but can forward by PM.

Pathfinder Badges
 

I would like to see pictures of the badges you have please.
Many thanks
Spurius

Just to clarify, the Operations badge mentioned by Bantam was only worn by members of the RCAF.

Hi,
I thought this thread would go on for many pages but it seems to have died a death, a pity as this badge is very special.
I was at an Arms Fair a few weeks ago and saw a Pathfinders badge with its original large labels attached, one green, one beige coloured. I remember one stated, " WORKING PATTERN - PATHFINDER" ( Not - "Sealed pattern" ) the label was dated 1943 and IMO looked 100% right. The badge, attached by brown string, was an eagle facing right, lugged with brass backing plate with retaining pin. It had a good price attached and as I do not collect RAF, left it, and then thought twice !!, I went back but was told that the gentleman stood to my right had just bought it together with 2 other scarce wings !!!. Obviously he knew what he was buying. This lugged pattern is not mentioned by Carroll.
any thoughts ??

RAF Pathfinder Badge
 

This is completely out of my area of knowledge, but I find it most interesting. Stitched with other badges (cloth formation signs and RAAF Pilot's wings) to the inside pockets of an Indian -made BD blouse worn by a QAIMNS Lt (Nursing Sister) in India is a gilt (?) RAF badge with 54mm wingspan that seems to fit the Pathfinders' badge descriptions. It has screw thread posts and although difficult to read - since it's stitched to the blouse - is maker marker LUD....... LONDON.
An expert comment on this item would be very welcome.
Thanks, Mike

Ludlows, possibly?

This is my pathfinder badge that i picked up last year, it has not been converted and was made as a pin back.
Andy

Pathfinders' badge
 

Please excuse my ignorance:

Did the Eagle face only one way. i.e. to the right as you look at it.?

Many thanks and regards
Brian

The Pathfinder badge was simply an eagle in brass or gilt finish. Generally with these badges there are four types of fixing - screw posts, pin (broach) back, lugs and split pin and bend over prongs.

Some years ago I sold a Pathfinder badge on ebay with screw posts, and received a mail from the Pathfinder Association saying that the only genuine pathfinder badges were made by (I think) Gaunts with a pin back. This was rubbish! Its true to say that there might have been a particular badge issued to aircrew (be it gilt or brass, pin back or whatever) but in reality all types were worn. I know of instances when the issue badge was given to a wife, or mother and the airman 'nicked' or bought another from somewhere else, be it a shop, an old cap, or whatever. After all, the badge is the same worn by VAD nurses attached to the RAF, Officers side caps, and sweethearts. I'm not sure how many were issue, but Airmen generally had two service dress tunics and one battledress.

The rule that airmen were not supposed to fly with them seems to be true, and thus, as mentioned you would have to have a badge that was easily removeable on the battledress, although this wouldnt be the case for service dress. This would generally call for a pin back, but I know of genuine examples of all the other three being worn. The bend over prongs usually signify an eagle coming from an officers cap badge.

In the 50s and 60s on, the Master Aircrew badge was worn, featuring a brass eagle with lugs and split pin on a backing plate. Many of these are removed and sold as pathfinders, although one of the pair faces the left. There are also those out there (including one fairly well known RAF dealer) who try and sell the 'Rare' silver Pathfinder badge. Absolute rubbish - it is mearly a silver RAF eagle sweetheart badge. I even had a dealer (who has a website with a WW1 battlefield name...) try and sell me a rare 'bronze pathfinder' badge once! It was in reality an eagle worn by the SAAF over their Sergeant and Flight Sergeant rank stripes. But someone told him as it was bronzed it was an RAAF version, and he went with that, doubling the price he had had on it for several months! The Pathfinder badge was gilt or brass only.

Generally speaking, for the RAF the eagle faced to the right, but as mentioned facing pairs were worn by VADs, Doormen at the Air Ministry and others, including the post war aircrew sleeve badges.

I was initerested to hear of the 'Working Pattern' badge with screw threads. But the only genuine way to get a pathfinder badge is to get one from a vet or his family, or at least one with known provenance, regardless of the fixing on the reverse.

Pathfinder award pin
 

I very foolishly listed a badge as

"WWII ROYAL AIR FORCE RAF METAL FLYING EAGLE - PILOTS WINGS - GILDED BADGE/PIN"

on ebay yesterday with a 99 pence start and was astounded to be almost immediately innundated with questions and offers.

Fortunately there was one very kind prospective buyer who took pity on me and sent me details of what I was actually trying to sell.

Denis, The one I have - from a reputable source - is brooch pinned and has what I can remember (from seeing one in the 1950's) the correct pin and retaining catch i.e. it does NOT have screw posts, and I do not recall the one I saw in the 50's as having them either. The RAF guy I met was an ex-Pathfinders (but I cannot recall his name) and undoubtedly (as has been mentioned) there were screw post versions, but the one he showed me was (pretty much) the same as the one I have. Mine is quite worn.
I am willing to send you pics of the back for personal use only, but will not post it, due to all the copying and fakers around. They can improve their faking skills enough as it is.... but not at my expense.
David

RAF Albatross Aircrew
 

Hi here is an Aircrew brass badge with screw-posts, could fit the bill to be used as a Pathfinder badge and the 2nd a Silver Albatross which I was informed was a Pathfinders and as I see in all probability miss-informed, nice badge all the same but now I ask is this nothing more than a Sweet-hearts brooch! not that that,s a bad thing!! any information would be welcome and hope i,ve posted something usefull to some-one!

Pathfinders Wings by Canadian Companies
 

Greetings,

This is my first post and I picked this old topic as I have, in my possession, two Pathfinder Wings with posted backs that are stamped with Canadian manufacturers. Both are approximately 55mm in length. The patch also came with the wings but I haven't found anything similar during my searches

I would love to hear any feedback or posts and thanks in advance.

Mark

I'm no expert on Canadian insignia, but I would say the badge on the left with the 'queens' crown is a pretty recent officers badge from a chipbag style hat. The badge next to it appears to be of a similar age and is I think is worn above the sergeants stripes (left arm) in the rank of Sergeant aircrew. As such, neither is a Pathfinder wing.
Hope this helps, Craig

Was there ever such a thing as a specific Canadian Pathfinder badge?

Rgds, Thomas.

Albatross?:confused:

my example.

Original Pathfinder Badges
 

This is a subject on which there is much debate, with an almost impossible goal of agreement. As a staff member at the RAF Pathfinder Museum, I have access to many established and contemporary examples.

The types and styles of the PF badges in the collection include those with pin backs, screw posts and 'blade' fittings. All such types were definitely worn as period pieces.

The type I personally favour is the pin back version with the 'barrel' pin holder and 'squared' catch loop, but that is not to say that the other types are not 'right'.

I would suggest that badges which do not come direct from veterans must be treated with caution unless accompanied by undoubted provenance and / or an original Pathfinder award certificate signed by AVM D.C.T. Bennett.

I have in my own collection one which I believe is beyond doubt, which came with no certificate, direct from a veteran's family with medals and other undoubted original documents. It is the same type as offered for viewing by forum member 'arrestingu' earlier in this thread.

There is no such thing as an Albatross badge in connection with either the RNAS or the RAF. IT IS, and always has been, AN EAGLE BADGE FOR BOTH !

Well said, I think the problem is simply that a number of people have clearly never actually seen an Albatross.

Commonly known within the RAF as a shitehawk, or certainly was in my father's time and my time.

This has been discussed on a number of occasions, quite frankly, any eagle actually worn as a Pathfinder badge, by a member of 8 Group, is, in effect, a Pathfinder badge, notwithstanding, what it may have originally been intended for.
The only difference is that the badge you refer to was actually made as a Pathfinder badge, it has been suggested that these are post war, made for the PFF Association, but, like you, I believe that some were issued to members of 8 Group during the war, moreover, I too, have had them in good original groups.

What are your thoughts on this example?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW2-RAF-P...sAAOSwVoFaoq-C

I think it's significant that there have been no bids. That tells you something, doesn't it?
David

A brooched eagle minus pin.
The hinge fitting has been solder repaired or adapted to brooch pin at some time.
The hook fitting is original to the badge and is of yellow metal matching the eagle.
Is the hook adapted from a lug fitting (I haven't seen that sort of lug fitting before if it is) or was it originally fitted as a hook?
A badge adapted from lugged to a brooched sweetheart or a badge that was originally brooched?

Again, another eagle, unless, you know the original wearer's identity?

Yes, it is.
The question was re. the fittings.
I'm taking the badge to be a form of sweetheart.

Yet to see them achieve it. The problem is not the fakers imo (in my opinion) but the ignorance of people that collect. Forums like this exist to educate, to sift through the facts, misinformation and disinformation.
I was doubtful about one Rhodesian item I saw in a decade. One out of thousands.
'When learning stops ignorance flourishes.' — Me.