21st Lancers collar badge query
 

Hello
Have any of you seen a Victorian 21st Lancers officer's collar badge with only two vertically aligned lugs? I have a Victorian 21L frock coat with two vertically aligned holes on the collars, which I'm trying to date and I think this might help, given the short periods for the different badge styles. I have seen some post Victorian ones with that configuration, so I assume this can only be the third pattern, while most of all types seem to have 4 lugs.
Thanks Richard

How do you know the frock is Victorian? Even if it has a label dating it or buttons with the QVC, collars are sometimes replaced due to wear, and buttons with the QVC were still worn years after the official change in crowns.
Additionally, officer badges in particular were under no definite regulations with regard to fixtures and their placement.

CB

It was certainly not unusual to wear collar badges with two of the four original lugs deliberately removed and you do encounter this as a collector on occasion, in particular, in the case of this regiment.

I think it is safe to assume that if any Victorian buttons are original to a particular coat, that coat will actually be Victorian.
The crown changed in May 1901, but, officers were not required to replace their kit until it became unserviceable, which is why the Victorian crown is often seen in use after that date.

Thanks for your comments chaps. I've searched later through the Army lists and found the owner to have been D.M. Methven who became a 2nd Lt in 1908, so he would indeed have had the later style collar badge, but with Victorian buttons...
Anyways it's a lovely thing and now maybe the collar badges are more within my reach!

Hi Richard

May I join the discussions on this one. I have a number of 21st Lancers collar badges, both QVC and GVR.

There are 3 different types of QVC collar badges, the first has lances crossed at about 45 degrees and is quite large.
Type 2 has upright lances.
Type 3 has lances that are crossed but are quite narrow like the subsequent GVR issue.

Type 1 has 2 lugs E -W with the lugs on the back of the pennons.
Type 2 has 4 lugs with the lugs at the top and bottom of the 2 lances.
Type 3 has 4 lugs, 2 at the back of the pennons and 2 at the base of the lances level with the XX1.

The GVR issues that I have are in brass, officers gilt and officers OSD Bronze, all have just 2 lugs but quite close together N - S and they vary from 13.5 to 19mm apart measured on the out side of the lugs.

Maybe the best person to ask is Mac McConnell. Mac do you want to join the discussion. Thanks mate.

'Regards

Phil.

PS, so why would a man commissioned in 1908 have either QVC buttons or collar badges ? That just don't follow ! Can you please post a close up of a button ?

The subject of crowns has been touched upon in various thread on this forum.
The tailor of this frock may have still had a supply of QVC buttons, or KC ones were simply not available at the time of tailoring for some reason.
It likely took several years for manufacturers to change all their dies for a myriad of insignia, and it is apparent that it took years more for older crowns to be replaced in the supply chain.
I have a Cameron Highlanders drummer's doublet from the 1920s that is still sporting QVC collar badges.
I might add that as a uniform collector, I have seen other officer uniforms with QVC buttons that were made after 1901 as well.

CB

Thanks for you post Lancer 17. I agree! Here are the original buttons, sorry one's a bit blurry. The buttons on the front I bought many years ago for display purposes. I've been researching Sandilands and Sons and they were certainly at 12 Conduit Road in 1888, but also still seem to be there in 1919, so when were they at 11 and 12?

That's very useful to know thanks. They must have been very expensive to buy in, so I can imagine the outfitters wanting to use as many as possible.

As said officers often hand kit down. I have several later items with vic buttons ect ect.i recently saw at auction a 21st hussars patrol jacket with 21st lancer buttons ect ect. As for loops I have collars with 2 loops 3 loops and two loops north south and the badges are the same as well.

Hi Fuzzybadge

Thanks for the photos but as you say they are a bit fussy, and its hard to tell if the buttons have Queen Vic Crowns or Kings Crowns.


Ive now had a look at Howard Ripley's button book and he only shows one button for the 21st lancers, it is the type 2 badge with upright lances, However but it has a Kings Crown.

I have also been through my cavalry buttons and the 21st Lancers that I have (4) are gilt officers buttons with fixed shanks, a large one is by Firmin and there are 3 smaller ones made by Jennens and they all have a Kings Crown.

So don't ask me the problem only deepens.

Regards

Phil.

Did the coat actually have any buttons upon it when you bought it?

The War Office memoranda with regard to crowns is extant at Kew and is very clear, it ultimately came down to the wishes of the King Emperor, officers were instructed to purchase the correct pattern when renewing items.
Was the doublet you mention actually made in the 1920's or was simply worn in that decade, if the former, I would be quite surprised if the buttons were original to it.

The four buttons to the rear are original to the coat, as are the epaulette buttons (all made by Jennens). Also attached is the label with blurred name which started all this off.

Okay, well I think that is a lovely thing, I do find it a little surprising that a newly commissioned subaltern did not make a effort to obtain the correct pattern by 1908 and go with regulations, but, I don't think it matters and to be honest the Victorian button is more attractive anyway.