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-   -   Grenadier Guards - "J.R. Gaunt Montreal". (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44390)

2747andy 31-01-15 09:33 AM

Grenadier Guards - "J.R. Gaunt Montreal".
 
3 Attachment(s)
Gentlemen,
your thoughts on this one please?

Is it;

a. A badge made in Canada for the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

b. A badge made in Canada for use by the British Grenadier Guards.

c. Possibly both.

Could anyone please add the possible period of use/rough date of manufacture?

manchesters 31-01-15 10:41 AM

Andy,

a. A badge made in Canada for the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

Date- WW1 ish, IMHO.

regards

Bill A 31-01-15 12:49 PM

Simon has it. The Gaunt concern in Montreal made badges for the Canadian market. There is nothing in the record to suggest the badges went to the UK.
Dating is a bit more of an issue. The Canadian Grenadier Guards plain grenade badge, without the royal cypher, is not recorded in the standard references but other sources indicate it was worn by the CGG. It was worn around the time of the First World War, but the CEF battalion supposedly only wore a cypher pattern badge. (This has been challenged and research has suggested tha the plain grenade pattern was worn as well.) It has been suggested that the badge was worn post FWW as well. A similar badge (if not the same pattern as this one) was also worn by the 10th Royal Grenadiers of Toronto, and a plain flaming grenade badge was also worn by the 11th Regiment (Irish Fusiliers). The latter is supposed to be a bit larger in overall size.

KLR 31-01-15 03:47 PM

There is a small amount of papers concerning the Canadian operation amongst the Gaunt archives in Birmingham Reference Library. Apart from their existence I did not make any detailed notes but remember that most of it concerned the business side.

manchesters 31-01-15 04:59 PM

In my Canadian Artillery badges only the pre - 1926 badges have the Gaunt, Montreal plate, if that assists in dating.

regards

whizzbang 31-01-15 09:50 PM

A non-cyphered grenade badge was worn by the CEF 245th Bn in which the lower flames went slightly upwards from horizontal. See: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/can...e/cef_e245.htm

Andy's badge is not that one. The 87th CEF had a similar pattern with a cypher, as Bill notes, as well as one with "pointier" flames: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/can...ce/cef_e87.htm

Could the one Andy is showing be a 1920's Winnipeg Grenadiers badge?

Cheers, Ian.

whizzbang 01-02-15 12:36 AM

On looking at some post-war Winnipeg Grenadiers badges the flame pattern is different from Andy's example.

Warstone 01-02-15 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill A (Post 296865)
Simon has it. The Gaunt concern in Montreal made badges for the Canadian market. There is nothing in the record to suggest the badges went to the UK.

Out of interest, what makes you think Gaunt Montreal badges were made in Canada and even more of interest, if so, where?

altcar73 01-02-15 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warstone (Post 296954)
Out of interest, what makes you think Gaunt Montreal badges were made in Canada and even more of interest, if so, where?

The information I have is that Gaunt (Montreal) badges were made (at least at some stage) in Birmingham (UK) and exported to Canada. I say that because several years ago when the Gaunt archive was auctioned here in the UK, three or four Canadian Police badges came my way which were tableted Gaunt (Montreal) Made in England. Gaunt also had offices in other parts of the world. New York was one location. I believe that the staff there were simply tasked with selling products. The actual items being made in the UK and then exported. I'm firmly convinced that the Canadian police items in question have never seen the light of day in Canada and I suspect that must be the case in respect of a number of Gaunt made Canadian military items which are in the UK.

Dave.

Marcus H 01-02-15 10:01 AM

Here's another example with such a plate to the Scottish Horse: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...light=Montreal

Best,

Marcus

Bill A 01-02-15 12:24 PM

Hello Warstone, Dave has given part of the answer. The understanding is that the British made badges were plated with the Gaunt Montreal/ Made in England and imported to Canada. There was insistence that materials purchased for the militia be made in Canada where practical. Badges with Gaunt Montreal were supposedly made in Canada, while the Made in England badges were imported and distributed by the firm. The Gaunt firm operated in Montreal. The Canadian operations of J.R. Guant were purchased by Scully's in 1984?
Dave, I believe you are correct regarding the police badges. Some badges were made in the UK and then sent to the customer. It is likely that the badges you have never left the country.
I am not sure what to make of the Scottish Horse badge.

manchesters 01-02-15 04:46 PM

This is a very enlightening thread for me.

It was my assumption that as the 'JR Gaunt, Montreal' included the City of Montreal in its title, then the badges were made there.

From what Warstone says he seems to believe they were in fact NOT. I am not arguing with that but would like to know for sure, if anyone can confirm whether JR Gaunt did actually manufacture in Montreal or not.

I have got a "JR Gaunt, Montreal" plaque on a British made "TF" Artillery cap badge with an applied CANADA top scroll. So there are two conclusions that can be made from that.

1. It was made in the UK, then shipped to Canada to have the top CANADA scroll applied and a 'JR Gaunt, Montreal' plaque applied also
or
2. It was all made and altered in the UK, them shipped complete to Canada.

Charlton No- 140 -1-2, covers the existance of these badges, but doesnt confirm where the alterations were done, other than to say GAUNT.

I have a RCHA shoulder title with a STAMPED in makers mark of ,"J.R.GAUNT, MADE IN ENGLAND". I havent seen this on a plaque.

So, is there a difference in Country of origin for the JR Gaunt mark with the added 'Made in England', or were all made in England.

Confusing isnt it.

Bill A 01-02-15 06:02 PM

It is an interesting thread. Made me re-think some assumptions. Digging into the Gaunt issue, there are other CEF badges made by Gaunt, which is another question to be explored.
Simon, there are a couple more possibilities. The die or dies may have been shipped to Canada, or perhaps altered dies were made and sent to Montreal.

manchesters 01-02-15 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill A (Post 297064)
It is an interesting thread. Made me re-think some assumptions. Digging into the Gaunt issue, there are other CEF badges made by Gaunt, which is another question to be explored.
Simon, there are a couple more possibilities. The die or dies may have been shipped to Canada, or perhaps altered dies were made and sent to Montreal.

Bill,

Yes thats another possibility, but WARSTONE seems to think that Gaunt didnt manufacture badges in Montreal?

regarsd

Bill A 01-02-15 06:38 PM

Hi Simon, Digging into that angle. The government of Canada was loath to spend money on companies outside of Canada for certain items, and there was quite a bit of political lobbying to make sure public stores were bought within Canada. It may be that Gaunt was set up as a distributor in Canada, and it is certain that some Canadian badges were made by Gaunt in the UK. Collectors' conventional wizdumb has been that the Gaunt Montreal plates were Canadian made badges, and the Gaunt Montreal Made In England were plates put on badges to meet certain import rules. It seems odd that those tags would be applied in the manner that they are if all the badges were made in the UK. Will do some more research.

Bill A 01-02-15 07:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
A J.R. Gaunt & Son (Canada Co.) Ltd. Catalogue, dated March 1917. Note their description of their business activities.

manchesters 01-02-15 09:09 PM

Bill,

Superb. Well done.

So, J.R. Gaunt of Canada DID manufacture badges, at Beaver Hall Hill, Montreal.

Can we therefore assume that badges marked "JR GAUNT, MONTREAL" were indeed manufactured in Montreal

and

Badges marked "JR GAUNT, MONTREAL. MADE IN ENGLAND" were not.

regards

2747andy 01-02-15 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill A (Post 297093)
A J.R. Gaunt & Son (Canada Co.) Ltd. Catalogue, dated March 1917. Note their description of their business activities.

Bill,
many thanks!

Andy

altcar73 01-02-15 09:32 PM

I still can't see any evidence that they actually manufactured badges in Canada. They had some printed paperwork produced giving a Canadian address. Also, giving addresses in New York and a couple of other locations. Whilst they give a London address, badges were not manufactured there. So, why assume badges were manufactured in Canada? Where is the evidence? It looks like an assumption to me............nothing else at this stage.

Dave.

manchesters 01-02-15 09:55 PM

1 Attachment(s)
This is a 1912-1913 Trade Directory for Montreal.

Pretty conclusive if you ask me that they were in fact manufacturing military gear in Montreal itself.

regards

'Ticker' Riley 03-02-15 11:11 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son in Montreal (& in London)
 
As someone with an interest in J. R. Gaunt & Son and their history it is great to see the advert pages from The J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada Co.) Limited catalogue of 1917, so many thanks to Bill for sharing this, and thanks also to Simon for the extracted details from the 1912-13 Montreal Trade Directory, which, again, is really good to see. However I’m afraid that I have to agree with Dave, and neither the pages from the catalogue nor the entries in the trade directory prove that Gaunt actually manufactured items at their Beaver Hall Hill address.

Back in 2009 I posted up some J. R. Gaunt & Son advertisements here, which were taken from the Army and Navy Gazette for 1918. These clearly give addresses at Conduit Street in London, but as far as I am aware this was just the Firm’s outlet in the Capital. Similarly, when it comes to trade directories you can find ones that give just a London address for Gaunt, even though this was only their retail premises and the factory was in Birmingham. For example here are the entries for ‘Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers’ from the ‘London Section’ of Stubbs’ Directory: Manufacturers, Merchant Shippers, and Professional. British and Foreign for 1919:


More important still, in respect of both the London and Montreal addresses, is a reference I made in another posting back in 2009 here, where I noted a letter that a John Dunnigan had put up on his buttons website (apparently now no longer available), and which he had received from J. R. Gaunt & Son Ltd (by then part of The Birmingham Mint plc) in 1985. The letter set out details of the Company’s history, and crucially had this to say about both their premises in London and Montreal:


I think this would seem pretty conclusive that J. R. Gaunt & Son didn’t manufacture anything in Canada, given it comes almost from the horse’s mouth, as it were.

Best regards

Martin

Bill A 03-02-15 11:49 PM

Hello Martin, To follow on your point, in 1985 Guant was only selling and not making. The Gaunt firm in Cananda had been eclipsed by other makers and military outfitters, and no longer had the volume or competitive edge to make badges in Canada. My understanding is that they ceased making badges in Canada at some time before or circa the Second World War and had become more of an outfitter / tailor concern during the latter part of their operations in Canada.

'Ticker' Riley 04-02-15 10:05 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son in Montreal (& in New York)
 
Hi Bill

Sorry I haven’t responded before now – work and such! Anyhow, I’m afraid I’m not sure quite what you mean when you say that by 1985 Gaunt “was only selling and not making”, are you taking about the company in Canada, or J. R. Gaunt & Son back in England? I’ve not personally come across anything about Gaunts over here not manufacturing things by the 1980s, and understood that when the business was sold to Firmin & Sons in 1991 it was done so as a going concern. In a circular letter sent out at the time of the sale to Firmins it does talk about Gaunts having “been located for the last two years in the Icknield Street factory”, which sounds to me like they were still making things in Birmingham at least! A copy of this circular letter also used to be on Mr Dunnigan’s site, but again this is now no longer available, though, thankfully, Forum member ‘btns’ has posted up a full transcription here.

As to Gaunt in Montreal, in 1994 John Richard Gaunt (grandson of James Richard Gaunt, the J. R. Gaunt in the Company’s name, and former Chairman of the Firm) wrote an article for Button Lines: The Journals of the British Button Society entitled ‘J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited: A Brief History by John R. Gaunt’, which I have previously referenced on the thread about ‘J. R. Gaunt & Son Company History’. Significant Mr Gaunt said that Charles Frederick Gaunt opened “offices in New York and Montreal” going on to say “The dates of these events is not known but he was in Montreal in May 1914”; I have a note that J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Limited were actually incorporated on 7 July 1908. He then has this to say about what happened to these “offices” following Charles’ death in 1939:


So to recap, in 1985 J. R. Gaunt & Son (albeit by then part of The Birmingham Mint) believed that the company in Montreal had been just a selling outlet and not a factory, and writing in 1994, John Richard Gaunt, ex-Chairman of the Company before it was sold to The Mint, also thought it, along with the business in New York, were just “offices”. Accordingly, as far as I can see, there’s nothing here to suggest that badges were made at the Beaver Hall Hill address, and I have to say that I would consider the Company as it was in 1985 and Mr Gaunt to be both pretty authoritative sources on this issue.

Maybe there was badge manufacture by Gaunt in Canada, and if so perhaps this was somewhere else? I did try and look up Beaver Hall Hill on the internet, but all I found was a Côte du Beaver Hall. I don’t know if this is the same street, but this doesn’t look like a particularly industrial area to me. I wonder if historic mapping of Montreal might help establish exactly where the Beaver Hall Hill address was, and what kind of building was there? I personally think that we should be cautious in assuming that Gaunts actually made badges in Canada, especially as the sources I’ve quoted have the company in Montreal as being just a selling outlet/office.

Best regards

Martin

'Ticker' Riley 05-02-15 07:54 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Co. Ltd, Beaver Hall Hill
 
Hello Bill

I’ve been looking through your posts again, and think your comment about Gaunts by 1985 “only selling and not making” was about the Canadian business. I also see that elsewhere you talk about the Montreal company being bought by Scullys in 1984. According to John Richard Gaunt’s 1994 article, of course, the link between J. R. Gaunt & Son in England and the firm in Canada was cut around 1939, so after this date the Montreal company appears to have been a total separate entity.

I take it you think the 1985 letter, and possibly now the 1994 article, were written too late after the event to count, so I think it should point out that these were both specifically dealing with the history of the Company. The letter says it was compiled using “information obtained from various employees”, whilst Mr Gaunt’s article was derived from his personal recollections. I do appreciate what you are saying, but I think you seem to be approaching things from the standpoint that Gaunt’s definitely manufactured badges in Canada, whereas I am looking at it based on the two sources I’ve quoted which clearly indicate the opposite.

It is without doubt interesting that there are Gaunt badges with Montreal marks, and that in addition some of these have “Made in England” on them. It is therefore a completely logically explanation to suggests that those without mention of England had been made in Canada, whilst the others simply imported. However, again, this is on the assumption that badges were made in Canada, and as I have said, given the information from the letter and article, this doesn’t look to be the case and I really do think this needs to be treated with caution. Perhaps there is another explanation for the two differing Gaunt Montreal marks?

I have been trying to look into things again today, and have found another reference, coincidentally from 1939, so at the time Mr Gaunt believes the Canadian “office” was sold to “Mr Folwer”, which gives another address in Montreal for “J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Company, Limited” being “616 Lagauchetière St. West”, which was apparently “2 Doors West of Beaver Hall Hill”. This seems to now be Rue de la Gauchetière Ouest, which cuts across Côte du Beaver Hall, so it would appear this latter street is what was earlier known as Beaver Hall Hill; though exactly where on this street Nos 63 & 65 were is another matter.

I also came across two other advertisements for the Montreal company, the first being from The Quarterly Militia List of the Dominion of Canada, March 9, 1915, p. x, whist the other is taken from Men’s Wear Review, Vol. III, No. 1, January 1918, p. 24:


Both give the Beaver Hall Hill address, alongside the London Conduit Street one. Given the nature of this thread I thought they’d be of some interest, even if they don’t help us address the question about whether or not J. R. Gaunt & Son ever actually made badges in Canada.

Best regards

Martin

manchesters 05-02-15 08:03 PM

Martin,

Clearly you are putting a great deal of time and effort into this issue and I really appreciate your help.

However I cannot help but lean towards thinking that Gaunt in Montreal were more than a distributor.

Can I take you back to the 1913 Trade Directory which clearly states the following:-

1. "Military Belt MAKERS"

2. "Military and Naval Ornament MANUFACTURERS"

That to me implies more than just a premises for distribution of foreign made products.

Also the fact that the premises takes up two numbers on Beaver Hall Hill, ie No.'s 63 & 65 tends to suggest a large enterprise.

It certainly isnt clear cut at the moment and requires some research from someone in Montreal who can access local history records for the period.

regards

altcar73 05-02-15 08:39 PM

What manufacturers say in their advertising material and what they actually do is often two entirely different things. It is called marketing/sales strategy. Also, because they appear to occupy one or two adjoining premises in Montreal does not point towards a manufacturing base. If they were importing British made goods then they would need storage space and possibly space for displays etc. The evidence provided thus far seems even more clear cut than was previously the case. It is interesting that on one of the adverts it says " All uniforms are guaranteed Best London (West End) cut and MAKE and the gold lace of the finest quality". It goes on to say "Prices moderate INCLUSIVE OF DUTY". (Import duty?)

Dave.

Bill A 05-02-15 10:53 PM

I have spoken about this with two knowledgeabe Canadian collectors, and their opinion is much like this thread. One says they made badges in Canada, the other says they didn't. Obviously more research will need to be done to confirm the issue either way.
Additional information was that the dies may have been made in the UK by the firm and shipped to Canada. Here the striking was sub-contracted to a maker. The Beaver Hill addresses appear to have been the distribution / tailor / outfitting shop. And, some of the catalogue listings were never made in Canada, but being of a generic nature (like rank badges) they were imported and sold from the store.
This has been an enlightening thread and challenges some ccwd (collectors' conventional wizdumb). Still more research to be done, and hopefully a conclusive answer can be arrived at.

'Ticker' Riley 06-02-15 08:25 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Ltd
 
Hi Simon

Glad to hear my efforts are appreciated, even if we don’t appear to see eye to eye on this matter, and yes I have spent a fair bit of time considering this. I’m afraid that I’m one of those people who doesn’t just accept things, but would rather try and investigate something myself where I can. Through my work on local history and my profession as an archivist, I know that just because something is repeated over and over again it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right! In this instance I’m simply trying to reconcile the information we have where, on the one hand, there is a belief that Gaunts did make badges in Canada, but on the other, we have the 1985 Gaunt letter and John Richard Gaunt’s article which seem pretty categorical the Montreal operation was only a selling outlet/office.

I do understand what you are saying with regard to the 1912-13 trade directory entries, and where it talks about J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Ltd being ‘makers’ of military belts and ‘manufacturers’ of military and naval ornaments. But the difficulty I have, which Dave has already tried to address, is if the Canadian company did operate as an outlet, then the listings are merely similar to the one I quoted from the ‘London Section’ of Stubbs’ Directory for 1919, where we find just the London address under ‘Military & Naval Ornament Manufacturers’, even though things were actually made in Birmingham.

Obviously as Montreal is in Canada, and not England, there is a difference, which was presumably behind the need to have it incorporated and registered in Canada as a distinct company (no doubt there were other benefits too from this if you were importing goods). Don’t forget that the Canadian advertisements give at least Gaunt’s London address as well as a Beaver Hall Hill one, clearly linking J. R. Gaunt & Son in England with its subsidiary in Montreal; not to mention ones in New York, Melbourne and Bombay!

I couldn’t agree more and that what we really need is someone local in Montreal, who could take up things and do some in-depth research. I have been having another go again today, and believe that I’ve now identified where on Beaver Hall Hill/Côte du Beaver Hall Gaunts were; though the original building does not appear to be there today. I still need to do more on this, and whilst it won’t answer any immediate questions about whether the Firm did make badges in Canada or not, at least it should be of some interest to Forum members who have been following this thread. I’ll try and get things sorted over the weekend, and will post up my findings as soon as possible.

Best regards

Martin

'Ticker' Riley 06-02-15 08:31 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son in Canada
 
Hello Bill

It was very interesting to read about the opposing views of the collectors you’ve consulted, which, as you point out, mirrors the discussions on this thread. As you also say, more research is obviously required to get to the bottom of this, something I have acknowledged in my reply to Simon. There should be something in Montreal that could help, though given Julian has identified records about the Canadian business in Birmingham Archives, it would seem there is also scope for investigations on this side of the Atlantic as well. If there was ever any manufacturing in Canada, either directly by the Montreal business, or by sub-contractors, then I would have thought this should appear in the archives. I see now that you believe the Beaver Hall Hill address was only “the distribution / tailor / outfitting shop”, which in someway goes with what J. R. Gaunt & Son said in 1985 and Mr Gaunt’s article of 1994. As I’ve just noted in the posting above, I do have further information on the address/es of the Canadian company, which I’ll endeavour to post up here; if only for interest.

Best regards

Martin

'Ticker' Riley 10-02-15 09:49 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son's Montreal Addresses
 
My apologies for taking a little longer than anticipated to get back about this, but it ended up being slightly more complicated to work things out than I thought it would be. Nevertheless, I’ve been busy using the very interesting set of Montreal trade directories that are available on the website of Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec, which are here, if anyone wishes to look, to try and find out more about the addresses of J. R. Gaunt & Son in Montreal, and herewith are my findings:

The earliest entry for Gaunts that I could personally find was in Lovell’s Montreal Directory For 1908--1909, where they are listed as ‘J. R. Gaunt & Son Ltd’ (note without the word ‘Canada’ as part of their name) and with the address of “104 Lindsey Building, 518 St Catherine West”, in the alphabetical section of the Directory, and at “rm 104, 518 St Catherine W.”, in the classified one. Although they are to be found in both the alphabetical and classified sections, they are not specifically noted as being at 518 St Catherine West in the streets section, possibly indicating that they had only recently moved in there?

Anyhow, in the equivalent Directory for 1909-10 we find they have moved to the familiar “63 and 65 Beaver Hall Hill” address, and that they are now called ‘J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Limited’. The differences here would appear to tell us quite a bit about the Canadian operation. The fact that their first premises looks to be just a room fits well with John Richard Gaunt’s statement about his uncle Charles opening an “office” in Montreal, whilst the change of name looks to confirm the incorporation date of 1908 and the establishment of the Canadian arm as a distinct company.

It should be noted here that there is a record of what appears to be Charles Frederick Gaunt arriving in Quebec aboard the ‘Empress of Britain’, out of Liverpool, on 27 August 1908, with his stated “Place of ultimate destination” as “Montreal”. Incidentally, according to the 1908-09 Directory, before Gaunts moved to No. 63 Beaver Hall Hill this was apparently “Kelley’s Dining Room”! For reference below are the two entries from the 1908-09 & 1909-10 alphabetic sections for comparison, as taken from the digital copies on the Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec site:


It is worth pointing out that the 1908-09 listing terms them ‘Manufacturers’, and in the classified section of the same Directory Gaunts are already under ‘Military Belt Makers’, ‘Military Equipment’, ‘Military & Naval Ornament Mnfrs’ and ‘Military Tailors’, even though they seem to have just arrived in Montreal! I personally find it hard to believe that they could have set things up quite so quickly as to be actually producing things, though, as has already been mooted, I’m inclined to believe Gaunts didn’t make badges in Canada anyway and were simply an outlet for imported items from England. In any event, J. R. Gaunt (Canada) Ltd continued to be at their 63-65 Beaver Hall Hill address right up until the 1915-16 Directory, however in that of the next year, 1916-17, there appears to have been a re-numbering and No. 63 is shown as No. 315, though still with the Company there.

More important is what happens in the 1923-24 Directory, where 315 Beaver Hall Hill is listed in the streets section as being occupied by an ‘E. Bentley’ , who in the classified section is described as “Merchant Tailor” (in the 1922-23 Directory he is recorded as being at “612 St Catherine West”). Gaunt’s new address, meanwhile, is now “358 St Catherine W.”, and where, in the alphabetical section, they are described as “silversmiths”! Not only is this how they are shown in the 1923-24 Directory, but also in that of 1924-25. However a year later on, in the Directory of 1925-26, they are down as “military equipment”; though still at this St Catherine West address.

It is difficult to guess at what might have been happening at this time, but one thing that may be significant is that in the 1922-23 Directory we have the last of the larger entries in the alphabetic section, like those shown above from the 1908-09 & 1909-10 ones. Presumably this kind of listing would have cost more, and previously the only time the Company didn’t run with the larger version was from 1914-15 through to 1919-20, so during the course of the Great War. Whatever the reason, from the Directory of 1923-24 onwards we only have Gaunt’s alphabetic listing as the normal smaller type. For information here are the two entries from 1922-23 & 1923-34, again from the copies on the Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec website:


By the 1926-27 Directory however, at least according to the alphabetic section, J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Ltd have moved back to Beaver Hall Hill, only this time to No. 313 (the streets section does not show Gaunts at 358 St Catherine West, but neither are they given at 313 Beaver Hall Hill). In the Directory of 1927-28 Beaver Hall Hill is again apparently re-numbered, with No. 315, still in the occupancy of ‘E. Bentley’, becoming No. 1131, and Gaunt’s new address of No. 313 changing to No. 1127.

In an attempt to show the two renumberings of Beaver Hall Hill, as well as Gaunt’s original location at Nos 63-65 (afterwards 315, then 1131) and their move back to the neighbouring property of No. 313 (then 1127), here are the relevant entries from four directories, again taken from the website of Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec; left to right, Lovell’s Montreal Directory For 1915-1916, Lovell’s Montreal Directory For 1916-1917, Lovell’s Montreal Directory For 1926-1927 & Lovell’s Montreal Directory For 1927-1928:


Note in the above, and unlike trade directories I’ve seen before, the numbering is shown in a single numerical sequence, rather than having each side of the street given separately (i.e. the odd numbers in one run and the even ones in another, or, as I’ve come across before, the east/north side of a road then the west/south side). This makes working out exactly where things are a bit difficult, but despite this I can assure you all that the numbering did run with the odds on one side and the evens on the other!

Well, I’ll leave things there for now, but I do have more to share, including details of the actual location of Gaunt’s two Beaver Hill Hall addresses, which I’ll post up in due course. In the meantime, I trust at least a few Forum members find the above of interest?

Best regards

Martin

'Ticker' Riley 11-02-15 10:34 PM

Location of J. R. Gaunt & Son on Beaver Hall Hill
 
As well as all the excellent Montreal trade directories on the website of Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec there are many interesting maps and plans. One in particular, a Fire Insurance Plan of the City of Montreal by Charles Edward Goad, from 1918, has helped me to confidently identify the location of the two addresses that J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Limited occupied on Beaver Hall Hill. Below is a low-resolution section of Sheet No. 21 of this volume of plans, showing part of Beaver Hall Hill, whilst the full size version may be accessed via the Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec site here.


As noted in my previous posting, J. R. Gaunt (Canada) Ltd’s first premises on Beaver Hall Hill was Nos 63-65, which would have been the third property down on the right-hand side, and which I have marked with a ‘1’. The plan actually gives these numbers adjacent to this, but they have been crossed out and next to them are written Nos 315-321, which fits with the change in street numbering recorded between the trade directories of 1915-16 and 1916-17 and that I’ve already mentioned.

Gaunt’s second location on the Hill, after moving to 358 St Catherine West for a time, again something I talked about in my last posting, seems to have been right next door to their first one, and so was the fourth down on the right-hand side, which I have marked with a ‘2’. The new numbers given here are 307-313, with the original number that is struck through being No. 61. By the time Gaunt moved here, of course, the second re-numbering had taken place, and so their address was No. 1127.

In case anyone is wondering, I believe that the blue colour is used to denote a stone construction (or sometimes concrete) and the pinky-red is apparently brick. Both the properties in question are also marked with an “S”, and although I can’t be sure exactly what this means I did wonder if it stood for ‘shop’ or ‘store’? Anyway, the site of this whole group of buildings on the right-hand side of Beaver Hall Hill/Côte du Beaver Hall is now occupied by a large tower block, numbered 500 Boulevard René-Lévesque Ouest. This is the street that runs across the top of the Hill, and which was formerly called Dorchester West (part of this name appearing at the top of the above section).

There is still a little more I can offer derived from the trade directories, which I’ll try and get together over the next few days, though which I might not get ’round to putting up until the weekend. So until then ...

Best regards

Martin

Bill A 12-02-15 12:54 AM

Fantastic research Martin. One question, even if Gaunt had the store fronts at this address, that does not preclude the rental or ownership of another address that was a manufacturing location.

jim a 12-02-15 11:54 AM

You'd think that after all these years in operation there would be some company photo's or personal photos of someone manufacturing badges in the plant if that was the case... or photo's showing the equipment that was there...kind of like actually seeing the cap badges in a photo...

altcar73 12-02-15 01:27 PM

Martin,

Thank you for your very comprehensive research. At the risk of repeating myself, I was always reasonably certain that metal insignia was never manufactured in Canada by J.R.Gaunt. Your very informative postings have confirmed my thoughts beyond reasonable doubt. Very many thanks.

Dave.

'Ticker' Riley 12-02-15 08:26 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son’s badge making in Canada?
 
Hello Bill

Good to hear you think my research has been worthwhile, and I do take your point about the possibility that Gaunts could have had a manufacturing site elsewhere. In fact in my second posting to this thread I did say “Maybe there was badge manufacture by Gaunt in Canada, and if so perhaps this was somewhere else?” I know you said in your posting, after consulting a couple of knowledgeable collectors over there, that there was a belief dies could have been shipped over from England and then badges struck by a sub-contracted in Canada. However, so far I am not personally seeing any obvious evidence for this. As we have already acknowledged more research needs to be done on things, perhaps by someone in Montreal but also at Birmingham Archives. Sadly I am not in a position to do this myself, but maybe there is somebody out there who is?

Best regards

Martin

'Ticker' Riley 12-02-15 08:29 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Ltd Research
 
Hi Dave

I’m pleased to know you’ve found my investigations of interest, and that they are helping to reinforce your views on matters. At present I am incline to agree with you and I personally doubt that Gaunts ever actually made badges in Canada, and they merely imported items bearing the Montreal mark specifically for the Canadian market. Though, as you will see from my reply to Bill above, I would be happy to accept the idea that they did make badges in Canada if there was some kind of evidence to support this. Research in Montreal, and possibly more importantly in Birmingham’s Archives and the records Julian says are there about the Canadian business, should settle things. Jim raises a good point about photographic evidence, but in all fairness to the opposing view, I can’t say I’ve seen pictures of badge production from Gaunt’s factory in England (though if anyone does have any photos, or knows of any, I’d appreciate hearing about it?). Anyway, as I’ve said before there’s a little more to come, which I will try and post up as soon as I can.

Best regards

Martin

magpie 12-02-15 08:36 PM

Private Photos may be near impossible to find as they may have had rules for which you could be sacked, one being bringing a camera to work and taking pictures.
Andy

Bill A 12-02-15 10:40 PM

Thanks to all who have contributed to the thread. It is educational and informative. This is the best the Forum can hope to achieve.
Jim, a couple of years ago I spent considerable time searching for photos of Scully's operations and a couple of other First World War era makers (Ellis, Inglis, and Hemsly iirc) to no avail. As Andy says there may have been issues with taking pictures, and in the era under consideration small personal cameras were just coming into general use.
Some clarification, as my interest is in Canadian badges my focus has been on that angle. There is no doubt that the Gaunt outlet in Montreal did not make badges during the Second World War and back into the inter-war years. The time period in my considerations is the pre-FWW and immediately post war era. Question, did Gaunt put plates on the badges distributed in India that read Gaunt Bombay, or similarly Gaunt Melbourne?

'Ticker' Riley 14-02-15 09:59 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son, Birmingham, London, New York, Montreal, Melbourne, Bombay & Berlin
 
Hello Bill

You ask a pertinent question in relation to Gaunt’s operations in Melbourne and Bombay, but I’m afraid that my personal collecting experience does not allow me to answer this. I understand, however, that there were items marked “J. R. Gaunt New York” and “J. R. Gaunt New York Made in England”, and there was even a badge posted to the Forum a couple of years ago marked “J. R. Gaunt Berlin”!

I can see where you are coming from on this, in as much as if we are talking solely about badges that are imported it would be reasonable to expect similar marking to have been used in the cases of Melbourne and Bombay as well. This, of course, brings us back to the whole premise of the belief that badges were actually made in Canada because they were specifically marked “Montreal”; with those marked “Montreal Made in England” being the imported ones and differenced as such by this mark from those with just “Montreal”.

Though could there be another reason for the two kinds of Montreal marks? Is there any kind of chronological difference evident in how the marks were used? In other words, do badges with one mark date from a certain period, whilst those with the other mark date to later or earlier? I’m wondering here if Gaunts were perhaps forced to add “Made in England” by the Canadian authorities because they were imported goods, and that marking them just “Montreal” wasn’t enough? Otherwise could the reverse be the true, and that they marked the earlier badges that were imported as being “Made in England” but then found out that they could get away with just putting “Montreal”??

Obviously all of the above is pure speculation on my part, but so far I’m still waiting to see anything that indicates the different marks ‘prove’ that J. R. Gaunt & Son made badges in Canada, rather than merely imported them. The two sources I’ve quoted of Mr Gaunt’s 1994 article and the 1985 Company letter, as well as the information I’ve uncovered from the trade directories, only points to the Montreal based company being an outlet. Maybe they did produce badges in Canada, or had them made in their name, or maybe they didn’t and everything was imported. I would think that the records in Birmingham Archives should help establish things one way or the other, or at least give a hint if any manufacturing did take place in Canada, so here’s hoping someone can take a look?

On the subject of photos, yes Andy makes a very good point that it might well be the case workers weren’t allowed to take pictures of the factory, and as you also observe the use of personal cameras may not have been widespread enough at the time anyway. Still there could, conceivably, be some kind of official photographs out there, but, like I said, at present I am not personally aware of any.

Best regards

Martin

'Ticker' Riley 22-02-15 06:59 PM

J. R. Gaunt & Son Addresses in Montreal, 1908-1984
 
To recap on my previous postings about J. R. Gaunt & Son in Montreal, they first appear in Lovell’s Montreal Directory For 1908--1909 at Room 104 Lindsey Building, 518 St Catherine West, but in the following year they have moved to the first of their two Beaver Hall Hill addresses, this being 63-65 Beaver Hall Hill. Around 1916 the street was renumbered, and Nos 63-65 look to have become Nos 315-321; nevertheless the Company would remain here until in the 1923-24 Directory we find them at 358 St Catherine West. The move to St Catherine West would be short lived, as, according to the alphabetical section of the Directory for 1926-27, Gaunts have returned to Beaver Hall Hill, only now to No. 313 (originally No. 61), which is apparently right next door to their previous address there. Then the 1927-28 Directory shows another re-numbering, changing Nos 307-313 to Nos 1127[-1129].

Moving things forward a little, J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Ltd continued to be at this second Beaver Hall Hill location until Lovell’s Montreal Directory for 1935-1936, when the streets section has a blank entry next to 1127 Beaver Hall Hill. Instead the Firm are shown at 616 Lagauchetiere West, though in the alphabetic section of the same Directory they are given as still being at “1127 Beaver Hall Hill”. In the one for the following year, 1936-37, however, the alphabetical listing also has “616 Lagauchetiere W”, along with noting that “G. F. Fowler” is the “mgr” [manager].

This is obviously the “Mr Fowler” that John Richard Gaunt talked about in his 1994 Button Lines article on the company history, and who apparently bought the Canadian branch after the death of Charles Frederick Gaunt in 1939. This also fits with the fact that from the 1942 Directory onwards it has “mgr dir” [manager & director] after Mr Fowler’s name. This description, and address listing, continues up to Lovell’s Montreal Directory 1956, Vol. 114, where the format changes somewhat and in the alphabetic section we have J. R. Gaunt & Son (Can) Ltd, “Regalia Mfrs”, still at “616 Lagauch W”, but with G. F. Fowler listed as “pres” [president], alongside “J. R. Gaunt” as “v-pres” [vice-president] and a “Joyce Williams” as “sec-treas” [secretary-treasurer].

The Directory for the next year, 1957, clarifies that the vice-president, “J. R. Gaunt”, is “John R. Gaunt”, meaning that the ties between the old firm back in England and the Canadian business had not, in fact, been complexly broken after Charles’ death in 1939. 1960 Directory has “Joan Rutyn” as the “sec-treas”, though in that of 1961 this has been corrected to “Joan Kutyn”. The alphabetic listing stays like this until the Directory for 1965-66, when they are given as being at “rm 1 616 Lagauch W”, with only “Geo. F. Fowler” shown, though he is still down as “pres”. In that of 1966-67 he is given as “Geo. E. Fowler”, which is how this remains from here on, and in the 1967-68 Directory their address is referred to as “apt 1 616 Lagauch W”, whilst in the Directory of 1968-69 it has “1st fl 616 Lagauch W”.

The following years have minor differences, such as in the 1969-70 Directory Mr Fowler is again noted as “mgr dir”, and in the 1970-71 one his name doesn’t appear but instead we have “Z Kutyn” [probably a mistake for J Kutyn] as “sec-treas”. When we get to Lovell’s Montreal City Directory / Annuaire Montréalais 1971-72, Vol. 129, J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Co. Ltd have a larger entry, stating that they are “Manufacturers of Uniform Equipment for the Army - Navy & Air Force” as well as “Police & Fire Departments - Railways - Bands etc.”, along with doing “Miniature Medals Decorations Silverware”. “Geo. E. Fowler” is down as “Pres & Mng Director”, “J. R.Gaunt” as “Vice-Pres”, and “Joan Kutyn” as “Sec-Treas”, again all still at “616 Lagauchetiere W”.

The 1972-73 Directory entry is much the same, except there have at last been some significant changes, inasmuch as Mr Fowler is only down as “Pres” and we now have a “R. J. Nicholls” as “Mgr Dirctor”, and more so a “L. Boileau” as “Vice-Pres”, in the stead of John Richard Gaunt; though “Joan Kutyn” is still “Sec-Treas”. A year later, in the Directory of 1973-74, the Company, with the same officers, has moved, after some 36 years at 616 Lagauchetiere West, and their new address is “594 Place Trans Canada Longueuil J4G 1P1”. After this things are more difficult to trace, but it seems that J. R. Gaunt & Son (Canada) Ltd were still at 594 Trans Canada Place in the 1984 Banlieues de Montréal / Montreal Suburban “Criss-Cross” L’annuaire Rue-Adresse / Street-Address Directory, but not in the equivalent one for 1985-86; which would seem to tie in with what Bill said about them being bought by Scullys around 1984.

Well, this is about as far as I can personally go with the different addresses for J. R. Gaunt & Son in Canada. Hopefully the above, and my previous postings, will be of use to someone who could perhaps investigate the Company further, either in Montreal or at Birmingham’s Archives? At least what I have discovered has helped to shed a little more light on the Firm’s history in Canada, even if it sadly hasn’t given us an absolute answer to the question of whether they made badges on that side of the Atlantic or not.

Best regards

Martin


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