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-   -   Hertfordshire regiment right facing and Hartfordshire Regiment collar badge (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69360)

Nozzer 20-08-18 06:36 PM

Hertfordshire regiment right facing and Hartfordshire Regiment collar badge
 
Churchill makes reference to the above, but provides no evidence. Can anyone provide said evidence of the right facing badge or the traditional Hatfordshire spelling version to prove his statement?

stenoyab 22-08-18 03:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The museum at Hertford had this Volunteer right facing collar, but if you look closely its slightly strange with the antlers unfinished ?, and not matched to the other as the front leg is not in the air.

Nozzer 22-08-18 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stenoyab (Post 452165)
The museum at Hertford had this Volunteer right facing collar, but if you look closely its slightly strange with the antlers unfinished ?, and not matched to the other as the front leg is not in the air.

Hi Stenoyab,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my question :)

I am very familiar with the Hertford museum collection as I lived for several years and still work in the town.

The badge that my query relates to is KK 1805 or Churchill 2007 which Churchill claims was worn in the collar by some Officers in 1911 and is said to be found with the hart facing to the right and, this is crucial to my research, "is also known with the spelling "Hartfordshire", the traditional spelling" (sic).

I am curious as to if he found any evidence and if he did then it is very possible that others (on this forum perhaps?) can assist in proving that these two badges do in fact exist.

Below is the pattern of badge that I refer to for clarity.

Nozzer 23-08-18 06:39 PM

So, I think that I have exhausted all the avenues that are available to myself now and I guess that the subject matter is a little bit specialised being a Territorial Regiment with limited interest. Sadly, I only know of two Hertfordshire Regiment collectors on the forum, orasot and gb64 with any knowledge of the regiment and my outside contacts have drawn a blank :( So given the lack of evidence on all fronts, I believe and I am ready to be corrected, that Churchill was using rumours, hearsay and word of mouth, much like Gaylor when he published his works.

I will let this one rest now until I can find more time to probe that little bit deeper than I already have.....

Nozzer 23-02-20 10:45 AM

Just giving this one a little nudge just in case.

Sadly, I still haven't found any evidence.

mike_vee 23-02-20 11:02 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Don't know if this is any help ?

https://www.themilitarycampaign.co.u...er-belt-plate/

Nozzer 25-02-20 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_vee (Post 501202)

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

A most interesting item that you show, but it is specifically the 1908 pattern cap badge that Churchill mentions with the Hart facing to the right. I have chased this "unicorn" of a badge all over our county, but to no avail!

Nozzer 06-05-23 07:51 PM

It's been a few years now, so I thought I might give this a nudge to see if anyone has come across anything? Although I haven't given this the time I once might of, I am still curious to know what Churchill was on about.

Andrew

Phil2M 06-05-23 08:49 PM

It's breaking my hart that this thread is not getting a definite answer, as its a subject so deer to you.

I absolutely can not help you, sorry, mate. I will be interested to see any thing that may crop up.

Nozzer 07-05-23 06:43 AM

Thanks Phil, hopefully people will fallow your lead and reply. I find it staggering that no one has seen the badge that Churchill refers to.

Jelly Terror 08-05-23 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nozzer (Post 452000)
Churchill makes reference to the above, but provides no evidence. Can anyone provide said evidence of the right facing badge or the traditional Hatfordshire spelling version to prove his statement?

Andrew,

I don't currently have access to my copies of K&K, or Churchill. I don't suppose you are able post an image of the entry in Churchill's book at all, please?

Without being able to see the pictures and text, I assume the badge allegedly worn by officers in the collar, would have been a looped cap badge, rather than a modified slidered badge... or have I completely misunderstood (nothing unusual there :o)?

With thanks,

JT

Nozzer 08-05-23 08:10 AM

Morning JT,

Page 327 "History of the British Army collar badge" by Collin Churchill

"Although no Official record has been located it is believed that, in 1911 only, some officers wore on their Service Dress, the cap badge in bronze (Fig. 2007). It is also said that this pattern is known with the hart facing to the right. This pattern is known with the spelling 'Hartfordshire', the traditional spelling".

So, although Churchill doesn't illustrate either, I would love to know where he got his information and what evidence he had seen. He was certainly confident enough to publish it, but would that have been based on rumours alone?

Shown below a bronzed HERTFORDSHIRE officer badge with lugs (the same as Fig. 2007) and just for interest, an officers cap badge with the HARTFORDSHIRE spelling

Jelly Terror 08-05-23 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nozzer (Post 602304)
Morning JT,

Page 327 "History of the British Army collar badge" by Collin Churchill

"Although no Official record has been located it is believed that, in 1911 only, some officers wore on their Service Dress, the cap badge in bronze (Fig. 2007). It is also said that this pattern is known with the hart facing to the right. This pattern is known with the spelling 'Hartfordshire', the traditional spelling".

So, although Churchill doesn't illustrate either, I would love to know where he got his information and what evidence he had seen. He was certainly confident enough to publish it, but would that have been based on rumours alone?

Shown below a bronzed HERTFORDSHIRE officer badge with lugs (the same as Fig. 2007) and just for interest, an officers cap badge with the HARTFORDSHIRE spelling

Thanks for that. Hope to access my books tomorrow. What are your thoughts on this badge posted by Stephen 'badjez' a few years ago?

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...=Hartfordshire

Nozzer 08-05-23 08:39 AM

Yes, I saw that. Churchill definitely specifically refers to the collar badge with the hart facing right being the same pattern as the cap badge (Fig. 2007). I do wonder if there was some confusion when he was compiling information for his book and the collar badge was in fact the one illustrated in the thread you linked to.

I guess unless someone has this unicorn, we will never know!

Jelly Terror 08-05-23 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nozzer (Post 602308)
Yes, I saw that. Churchill definitely specifically refers to the collar badge with the hart facing right being the same pattern as the cap badge (Fig. 2007). I do wonder if there was some confusion when he was compiling information for his book and the collar badge was in fact the one illustrated in the thread you linked to.

I guess unless someone has this unicorn, we will never know!

Gotta be something out there somewhere that will reveal the answer.


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