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-   -   signaller badge what are the flags ? (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63495)

Jackhr 04-08-17 10:42 PM

signaller badge what are the flags ?
 
2 Attachment(s)
On the badge you have 2 flags 1 is dark blue other white with a blue stripe down the middle so what do the flags mean??

cheers Jack

green_jas 05-08-17 04:11 AM

I would assume that it is perhaps the signals corps colours? I have seen that patch on black background as well.

Thanks
Jas

green_jas 05-08-17 04:15 AM

If you are asking what the actual flags mean I would think it is a patch to denote the there role, crossed flags as they used flags to signal back in the day. Much like a crossed rifle for Infantry patch.

Someone may have a definitive answer?

Thanks,
Jas

Jackhr 05-08-17 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_jas (Post 415605)
If you are asking what the actual flags mean I would think it is a patch to denote the there role, crossed flags as they used flags to signal back in the day. Much like a crossed rifle for Infantry patch.

Someone may have a definitive answer?

Thanks,
Jas

Thanks Jas but what I would like to know is what does the white flag with blue stripe represent ? ei a word,letter of the alphabet or something else .

Thanks Jack

fairlie63 05-08-17 07:19 AM

Hello Jack,

The dark blue flag is for use for visual signalling with light backgrounds, and the white flag with blue strip is for dark backgrounds.

Your example appears to be a nice early Australian badge, 1904-1920 or so. Perhaps earlier.

Keith

Jackhr 05-08-17 07:53 AM

Thanks Keith for your reply but what would the guys in the photo be doing ,the reason I ask is I have come across a flag and just wanted to know what its purpose was.

Cheers

leigh kitchen 05-08-17 08:06 AM

They're practising signaling, using the flags, presumably (I'm resisting making a joke about Aussie Rules cheerleaders).

fairlie63 05-08-17 08:06 AM

Visual signalling with semaphore. The position of the flags indicated a letter of the alphabet.

badgecollector 05-08-17 08:18 AM

there were a set of cigarette cards all with the semaphores on them.
im sure there available somewhere
here's something for you jack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SulHXA4JbE8
bc

Jackhr 05-08-17 08:22 AM

Thanks guys for all your help but what i want to know is what does the flag mean is it only for practise or does it represent something.

fairlie63 05-08-17 09:06 AM

Jack - the flag has no meaning. If you look at bc's link you will see that it is the position the flag (or both flags in conjunction) is held that denotes the letter of the alphabet, or an action, or a number.

The colour of the flag is so that it can easily be seen against either a dark or a light background depending on the location of the sender and the observer.

Flags stand out much better than waving arms, hence their size, 2 or 3 feet square I think.

It is for sending messages, has been so for hundreds of years (hundreds? maybe a bit less), well before wireless, email or mobile phones. It is a bit like Morse, just with flags instead of a buzzer.

Mike Jackson 05-08-17 09:16 AM

It is for sending messages, has been so for hundreds of years (hundreds? maybe a bit less), well before wireless, email or mobile phones. It is a bit like Morse, just with flags instead of a buzzer.

Read all about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_line

Jackhr 05-08-17 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairlie63 (Post 415634)
Jack - the flag has no meaning. If you look at bc's link you will see that it is the position the flag (or both flags in conjunction) is held that denotes the letter of the alphabet, or an action, or a number.

The colour of the flag is so that it can easily be seen against either a dark or a light background depending on the location of the sender and the observer.

Flags stand out much better than waving arms, hence their size, 2 or 3 feet square I think.

It is for sending messages, has been so for hundreds of years (hundreds? maybe a bit less), well before wireless, email or mobile phones. It is a bit like Morse, just with flags instead of a buzzer.

Thanks Keith you have answered my question, i have seen all the other type of flags and just was not sure if the flag had a meaning(color of it)

Thanks again for your help .............. where is that button :)

wardog 05-08-17 02:33 PM

Could not have used a plain white flag against a dark background- wrong sort of message...No doubt there is record somewhere of how each flag style was chosen. Regards, Paul.

Lancer 17 06-08-17 10:29 AM

The blue and white enamel crossed flags were worn by signals instructors and the men's trade qualification badge is die stamped copper.

We have an example in the Sigs Museum and it has the name of the wearer, however I don't have this detail at home. I hope that helps.

Regards

Phil.

leigh kitchen 06-08-17 10:35 AM

Have you any reference re. the use of enamelled badges by instructors only please? (I'm not challenging what you say, just interested).

BROOKIES 06-08-17 02:30 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lancer 17 (Post 415759)
The blue and white enamel crossed flags were worn by signals instructors and the men's trade qualification badge is die stamped copper.

We have an example in the Sigs Museum and it has the name of the wearer, however I don't have this detail at home. I hope that helps.

Regards

Phil.

Image for reference as think this is it.

Ta

Jonathan

Attachment 175532Attachment 175533Attachment 175534

leigh kitchen 06-08-17 02:58 PM

Thanks, I have one set of the enamelled & a couple of the plain brass / gilding metal though not other versions used by the British army in white metal, blackenedetal etc.
There was a school of thought that the enamelled might be early examples, private purchase, I'm not sure whether the issue was ever resolved in debates on forum.
Ive not heard of the instructors explanation.

NorthStafford 06-08-17 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackhr (Post 415619)
Thanks Keith for your reply but what would the guys in the photo be doing ,the reason I ask is I have come across a flag and just wanted to know what its purpose was.

Cheers

I would imagine that they're training/practising semaphore skills.

Jackhr 06-08-17 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthStafford (Post 415822)
I would imagine that they're training/practising semaphore skills.

Thanks for your reply.

Lancer 17 07-08-17 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen (Post 415761)
Have you any reference re. the use of enamelled badges by instructors only please? (I'm not challenging what you say, just interested).

Hi Leigh,

Sorry no I don't but will look in the library at the Sigs Museum when Im there next probably Tuesday next week.

Regards

Phil.

leigh kitchen 07-08-17 07:12 AM

Thanks you, it would be good to know more about the enamelled (albeit from the comfort of my armchair while you're putting the effort in).

fairlie63 07-08-17 07:59 AM

The example in the RASigs Museum belonged to the collection of MAJ EJ Millett MBE, and was presented to the Signals Museum in 1997 by Mr Haydn Vesty according to the interpretation on the display.

EJ Millett was an officer of the Australian Army Ordnance Corps and is unlikely to have ever worn this badge.

It was never an issue badge in the Australian army, it was privately purchased by those who wore it and was not restricted to instructors at LHQ School of Signals. I have a photograph of a uniform of a member of an AIF trench mortar battery 1917-19 which is still in the possession of the family and which bears this badge. I also have a black and white photo of members of Tasmania L of C Area Signals late 1942 or early 1943 in which one corporal who appears to wear a miniature Merchant Navy or RN colour patch, also seems to have the enamelled crossed flags above his chevrons on the right arm.

In short, anybody in the Australian army who wore this badge did so unofficially and entirely at his own expense (or perhaps that of regimental or canteen funds).

Keith

green_jas 07-08-17 02:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
This picture was on another thread but I believe this is the crossed enamel flag you are speaking about. Upon reading the information on the card it says that the two badges (Enamel crossed flag and Enamel round badge) were worn during WW2?? I was wondering if perhaps this card has the wrong period and it should maybe read WW1??? The round badge I have seen another photo and it says Commonwealth Signals School AIF. This sounds like WW1???any thoughts? I also saw one of those enamel round badges sell at a Nobles Numismatics auction and on the rear it was named to a WW1 Signals soldier.
Does anyone have one of these? and know more information about it?

Thanks,
Jas

Lancer 17 26-08-17 06:33 AM

Hello all

Well I made it to the Sigs Museum this week and have looked up the "Book of Words"

Again I'm quoting from Signals and Signallers Badges in the Australian Army 1870 to 2006 by Major Graham Donley RFD (Ret'd). This is a manuscript in limited edition and has not been published generally, a copy is held by the museum's library. This states in parts.

"The flags actually used by the Australian Army Signals were:
1 Dark blue, for use against a light background.
2 White, with a central blue stripe down its length (said to differentiate it from a white flag of surrender) for use against a dark background"

"They could be used individually to send Morse code or jointly in like pairs for Semaphore. The dark blue and white flags were not to be used as a pair."

REFERENCE: Training Manual - Signals, 1907, Page 9.".


Chapter 2 is wholly about Signalling Badges and provides information in regard to Pre Federation (ie pre 1901) , Colonial forces as well as the Australian Army.

"Signallers.
This is the trade quoted in the relevant references.
The badge to indicate qualified Signaller of All Arms was the crossed flags.
Assistant instructors in Signals also wore it over their chevrons. Chevrons were worn on the right upper arm only during this period.
The shape of the flags changed slightly over the years, but the badge remained easily identifiable for what it was.
The metal crossed flags badges were 1 13/16 inches (4.6CM) high and the cloth type 2 3/8 inches, (5.6CM) high."

"From 1902 to circa 1905, they were produced in:

1 Embroidered silver and embroidered silk for the New Slouth Wales Lancers.
2 Embroidered gold on green, worsted yellow on green and worsted red on khaki for the 1st Australian Horse.
3 Silk for the New South Wales Mounted Rifles.
4 Worsted and silk for the New South Wales Artillery.
5 Worsted and gold for the New South Wales Engineers.
6 Silk for the New South Wales Infantry Regiments.
7 Silk for the 18th Light Horse (West Australian Mounted Infantry)
8 Gold embroidered for the Royal Australian Artillery, and
9 Silver embroidered or worsted for the West Australian Infantry."

"Reference: Various Government Gazettes."

"In 1906, they were produced in in gold or silver bullion wire with the flags in blue, and white with a central blue stripe and shaped as per the metal badge."

"A signaller, if a Colour Sergeant wore the signallers badge on the left arm, as the Colour Sergeants badge comprising crossed flags was worn on the right arm.
Reference: Standing Orders for Dress and Clothing Military Forces of the Commonwealth, Part 111, 1906"

"In 1907, white and yellow worsted crossed flags badges appeared."

"There also exists a very attractive badge of this shape, but in brass and blue and white enamel. No official references can be located for this badge, which may have been privately purchased by those who wore them."

"The example that I have studied is of the same general dimensions (as the metal badge) but there is a different angle in the crossed poles and two of the four fixing lugs do not match."


So there you have it, I hope that this helps.

Regards


Phil.

Jackhr 26-08-17 07:53 AM

Thanks Phil that is great as I have a flag in the collection and was wondering about it.

Jack

Lancer 17 20-10-17 06:53 AM

G'day jack

Here's a follow on to the above lengthy post.

I'm pleased to say that I have now acquired a pair of the blue and white enamel flags from one of my good contacts in the UK and he has sent me the relevant page from the trade badge book by Edwards & Langley.

No 8 refers to the crossed flags for "TELEGRAPHIST RE and QUALIFIED SIGNALLER and also ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR IN SIGNALLING.

This confirms "Signal Regulations 1914" confirms the use of the blue flags against light back grounds and the white with blue stripe against dark back grounds.

And states that "it was originally a prize badge and an OA of1887 awarded it, and the sum of fifteen shillings (75p) per annum, as a bonus to each man qualifying."

It further states that "The early metal versions had coloured enamel flags (8A), a very handsome badge". Others were all brass, (8B) or white metal for light infantry or blackened brass for rifle regiments.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

grumpy 21-10-17 10:37 PM

I am the Langley part of Edwards and Langley.

The enamelled versions have always intrigued me, as there has never been found an official reference to issue.

My opinion [for what it is worth] is driven by 80 years observation of Treasury, War Office and Defence Ministry parsimony. It is that there was never any need to spend good money on an enamelled version, so good money was not spent. This is an example of Inherent Military Probability, and Occam's Razor.

I believe the enamelled badges are ALL private or unit purchase, a vanity item. There is no reference to them in RACD ledgers, Clothing Regs, Vocabs or COSA. It remains for the believers to offer proof, which certainly does not lie in our book of Proficiency Badges, written all of 33 years ago.

As ever, I could be convinced by authoratative evidence.

Lancer 17 22-10-17 05:20 AM

G'day Grumpy

Thanks for joining the conversation.

Private purchase was the conclusion drawn out here as noted in my previous post above.

I collect signals badges as my father served in sigs in New Guinea during WW2. He had previously been a "ham" operator prior to being married so was already mores proficient. He being a sig is the reason that I volunteer at the sigs museum in Melbourne.

Pm sent Grumpy.

Regards

Phil.

Jackhr 22-10-17 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lancer 17 (Post 425007)
G'day jack

Here's a follow on to the above lengthy post.

I'm pleased to say that I have now acquired a pair of the blue and white enamel flags from one of my good contacts in the UK and he has sent me the relevant page from the trade badge book by Edwards & Langley.

No 8 refers to the crossed flags for "TELEGRAPHIST RE and QUALIFIED SIGNALLER and also ASSISTANT INSTRUCTOR IN SIGNALLING.

This confirms "Signal Regulations 1914" confirms the use of the blue flags against light back grounds and the white with blue stripe against dark back grounds.

And states that "it was originally a prize badge and an OA of1887 awarded it, and the sum of fifteen shillings (75p) per annum, as a bonus to each man qualifying."

It further states that "The early metal versions had coloured enamel flags (8A), a very handsome badge". Others were all brass, (8B) or white metal for light infantry or blackened brass for rifle regiments.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

Thanks Phil for the follow up all very interesting reading.

Cheers

PS nobody has a spare enamel badge they would care to sell me :D

Drummajor 22-10-17 10:24 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Yes I have one spare, I also have a spare blue enamel 1930 collar badge.
Failing that, there is an enamelled crossed flags badge on Ebay right now, bit expensive though.

Phil.

Jackhr 23-10-17 01:43 AM

Thanks I have sent you a PM did you get it?

Cheers

Lancer 17 23-10-17 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drummajor (Post 425363)
Yes I have one spare, I also have a spare blue enamel 1930 collar badge.
Failing that, there is an enamelled crossed flags badge on Ebay right now, bit expensive though.

Phil.

G'day Phil, Pm sent. Phil.

Drummajor 23-10-17 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackhr (Post 425368)
Thanks I have sent you a PM did you get it?

Cheers

No mate didn't get the PM.
Phil.

Jackhr 23-10-17 08:02 AM

I sent it thru your profile page , no matter i was asking how much for the badge only ?

Thanks

nigel67 14-05-18 09:06 PM

These need a new home
 
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=154076

Looking to swap for either Royal West Kent OR Prizes for driving (Horses)


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