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HerefordAnnie 19-03-21 01:18 PM

Complete Novice - Possible late 1880's
 
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Hello. My name is Shirley and I am doing research on an Industrial School in Hereford. We have discovered in one of the local books the attached picture and wonder if there may be someone out there who knows a bit more about this uniform than me. The young lads are the 'inmate's' scholars of the Industrial School at that time and we believe the chap with the dark beard and 'boater' was the 'Superintendent' of the school - as we have only seen one photograph of him with grey hair we are assuming that this is around the time that the school first opened - which was 1874. I have been told that the headdress of the Soldier is of 'Shako' style - that's all I know.
Thanking you in advance.

Bill A 19-03-21 06:04 PM

Hello HerefordAnnie, welcome to the Forum. Your account is active and open for posts. Hopefully the membership may be able to help with your request.

HerefordAnnie 20-03-21 12:07 PM

Thank you - I hope we can get a bit more info on the uniform and head gear. Sadly the badge comes out too pixelated to enlarge any more and as it's been taken from a book - i don't have the original.

Borderer 22-03-21 04:03 PM

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Hi Herford Annie,

Although the photograph is heavy pixeled I would say because of the shape of this particular Shako and Badge Plate its the French Pattern Shako, the later Shakos all had more of a forward slant, here is the write up on the French Shako from my book, I have also attached a photograph from the same angle, hope this helps, you.

I am unable to help on the second photograph and can not view it because it appears perpendicular rather then horizontal. With regards to the dates, this would fit as although this shako was out of service in the regular Army it would have life in yet hence being worn long after its military service.
Kind regards
Hiram Dunn

10. French-Pattern Shako. Worn 1855 until 1861.
The French-Pattern shako worn during this period is the much-improved version of the previous 1855 model, the Albert shako, this redesign came about because of the Albert shako’s failures during the Crimea war, it was found to be too tall and clumsy, in comparison to the smaller French shako, similar to a ‘Kepi’, now our allies in this war, hence it being named the French-Pattern shako. The make-up of the shako was of black felt and just over 5”(13cm) deep at the front and curved down the back of the head, the top was covered in black patent-leather and sunken and turned over round the edge and stitched, a similar leather band double stitched and turned over went around the bottom forming the headband. The peak was altered, at the front, now a larger horizontal square black patent leather peak, with a smaller slopping peak at the rear. On the top of the shako, positioned at the front centre, was a worsted ball-tuft in the same colours of the pervious shako, fixed in a gilt socket. At the rear of the shako was a bronze gorgon-head for ventilation. The soldiers French-Pattern shako was of the same design but made of stout felt, with leather parts lacquered without binding on the peaks, the aeriation for soldiers was achieved by black-metal discs with several holes and positioned on each side of the shako. The chinstrap was the same for all ranks made of leather with a buckle on the right side. The shako-plate for officers was of gilt in the form of an eight-pointed rayed star, surmounted by a crown, on the centre pierced is a Garter-belt with the motto, Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense, on a burnished gilt ground, in the centre of which is, the regimental number of burnished gilt backed by a black piece of leather. Soldiers shako-plates were made of brass and of the same basic size pattern, but rather than pierced they were stamped.

Borderer 22-03-21 04:39 PM

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Hi Herford Annie,

I have righted your photograph which has enabled me to have a better look at the uniform, Dark Blue serge button at the front with white shirt, children appear to be wearing, holding or in one case having it side ways on his head, (helpful as it enables one to see the ribbons hanging at the rear) a Glengarry. The standard colour of the Glengarry as an undress headdress during this period in the military would have been dark blue, however, it would appear the headdress in the photograph is of a grey material, moreover, has the Scottish dicing, see photograph example attached to give you an idea, if your photo had been in colour, also I have attached a photograph of a military Glengarry worn by my regiment and the write up on the Glengarry from my book. It should also be taken into consideration that Militia units during this period wore Grey coloured uniforms so the headdress may have been ready available to purchase by the school, they appear similar in dress and appearance to the children of the Queen Victoria School Dumblane, which was set up by the Queen to educate servicemen's children and still do so to this day.
Kind regards
Hiram Dunn



14. Glengarry Cap. Worn 1874 until 2006.
The Glengarry was first introduced in 1874 as an undress headdress and was worn by all ranks, the issue pattern glengarry cap has not changed in all its years of service, made of dark blue cloth with a red worsted toorie sewn central on the crown, the headband is of black silk, in some instances leather, ending with two silk ribbon tails hanging down at the rear, a band of red, white and dark green dicing runs around the glengarry, with a black ribbed rosette of silk stitched on the left side on which the regimental badge is worn. The Pipers glengarry carries no dicing. The badges worn on the glengarry by officers and soldiers of the regiment have varied in design during its long service. Moreover, badges that were worn on the glengarry as well as another headdress, will be mentioned in the write up of that particular badge.

HerefordAnnie 22-03-21 10:52 PM

Vexxing.
 
Thankyou so much for your reply - it's all very interesting. Yes, when I put the long photograph on it was the right way up, was vexxed to see that it had gone back round again. I wanted the whole picture to be shown for the full effect. In the mists of the picture on the right hand side is another soldier emerging from the background. As this was a Hereford home - on the research it says they had a holiday in Wales and had days out around the Hereford area and it makes me wonder where this photograph was taken and did the lads have mini me uniforms made for them?? It opened up a whole load of questions really not just the head dress. But yes, now looking at the main picture again they look specialised hats. Of course the Hereford Militia would probably been around at that time?? I'm trying to do some study on it all - but it's so vast. They had little marching band uniforms and daily school uniforms, cassock for the choir. Opens up the question where were these uniforms made and the hats.

HerefordAnnie 22-03-21 11:12 PM

Would you mind??
 
Would you mind if I used your picture of the fabric 'Glengarry' under the picture I have on the boys facebook page please - to show that we do indeed think that they were dressed in a little uniform of a military type.?? Yes, have just had a google and it appears the young lads headdress was exclusive to Canadian or Scottish units. Definitely looks like a Tartan band as the trimming for the Glengarry. I've just enlarged it a bit more on my computer. Such tiny tots sat at the front. I have tried to find any newspaper write up about a trip that might involved a visitation to a Military camp but so far found nothing.

Borderer 23-03-21 04:25 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi Shirley,

You are free to use the photograph, I have attached two photographs for you;

The first illustrating the Dicing (official naming) the colours are in this case Red, White and Dark Green dicing. The boys Glengarry would appear to be Fawn in colour and I have no idea what colours the dicing would be. However, if there is a Canadian connection then it should be quite easy to research they have excellent records.

The second photograph is from my Regimental Museum, King's Own Scottish Borderers, at The Barracks, Berwick-Upon-Tweed, to illustrate the Dicing on different headdress, also show the Grey uniform cloth on the Home Service Prussian Style Helmet in the centre, it was worn by the Border Rifle Volunteers and corresponds with the colour of their uniform tunics.

I would say that the boys are dressed in some sort of military style uniform the jackets and trousers appear Naval which may have been obtain off the shelf as naval recruits started a lot younger than the Army at their training collages so that would fit, on the headdress I still feel that they have come from a Militia unit either in the UK or Canada who emulated a lot of the Scottish Regiments in their Armed Forces.
Kind regards
Hiram

leigh kitchen 23-03-21 04:43 PM

Is there definitely a diced band on the glengarrys worn in the image in post no. 1?

HerefordAnnie 23-03-21 06:07 PM

Sadly, as the picture came from a book it has been very hard to get any kind of definition.

We are in Hereford on the Welsh Border and I cannot quite understand why the boys would be wearing a 'Scottish' related headdress - I am stumped. We are famous for the Hereford Cattle and Bull lol. I have had a search and there is nothing related to any local regiments that would be remotely in keeping with Scotland or Canada. But it's definitely in the form of the 'Glengarry' isn't it. The headmaster was from Cheshire - so no connection there. Why would a Scottish regiment be around the Herefordshire area - although most training took place in Shrewsbury, Shropshire.

The lads are inmates and scholars of a 'naughty' boys school. Waifs and strays, street urchins, petty thieves and they are learning a trade in the home that they live in. It's the next step up from the Workhouse really - so this is a day out for them rather than a recruitment drive (far too young anyway). So, I'm still mystified.

leigh kitchen 23-03-21 06:26 PM

So possibly nothing to do with the military, as you've indicated in your first post.

HerefordAnnie 23-03-21 07:45 PM

Actually. The original post was with regards to the guy with the Shako headress - so yes it was Military related from the off but I have been helped further with the little lads outfits which has been a nice off shoot. Just thought I would give a bit of back ground - these little lads are clearly at a Military camp somewhere local to Hereford - as guests. We were trying to establish what year the photograph was and who the Military Militia man might be in the background or what regiment it might relate to. Like I say - complete novice that was why I was advised to consult this forum.

leigh kitchen 23-03-21 07:58 PM

My comment wasn't a criticism, I'm saying that I'm not at all sure there is a link to the military.
Lots of interesting information in this thread, but I'm not sure that the uniforms or headgear indicate anything other than uniform of staff and boys at an institution.
I may be wrong.

Borderer 23-03-21 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen (Post 543302)
Is there definitely a diced band on the glengarrys worn in the image in post no. 1?

Look at my post where I have copies the photograph from Shirley's first post and put it the right way up, the boy's are clearly wearing Glengarry's with Dicing.

Cheers
Hiram

leigh kitchen 23-03-21 08:03 PM

II don't see that as clearly as you do, hence my question.


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