Uncertain GVR Cap badge
 

K&K list 2 types of the Norfolk Yeomanry cap badge and show the GV and GVI only as full sized until the EIIR version when a small beret badge was made.

The Military provost in WW2 had a small beret sized GVIR badge but K&K show the WW1 version with a wreath. The EIIR version gets bigger as it takes up a scroll.

Wilkinsons book mixes up the lot and gets very confused.

I always wondered if the small GVR badge was genuine. This belt is on ebay and looks genuine and includes the same GVR badge. Norfolk Yeo beret sized does not seem likely for WW1 so is it indeed Military Provost?

Any ideas?
Postscript Likely to also have been worn by the Royal Defence Corps whilst the wreath badge is likely to be Regimental Schoolmasters.

Norfolk Yeomanry
 

Alan
Without actually looking at the badge closely I could not say whether it is a MPSC with the wreath cut off (as my Norfolk). I have seen many of this type of badge advertised as Norfolk Yeomanry which I don't think they are as the Norfolk Yeo had a large badge.
Incidently, could you or anyone else tell me why these belts are referred to as "Hate belts". This is a term I have only just encountered.

Hate belt is a ebay invention to jazz up the item. Load of rubbish. The idea is that a solider collected the badges from the hated enemy. Actually they are usually all GB and commonwealth badges and were more a record of a soldiers service and the units he had met.

As far as the badge goes there is one shown in Wilkinson's book and I have an identical one with no sign of adulteration.
Alan

i had a similar badge (below) ---genuine 25 %....:o

for me it's (perhaps)a military provost staff corps (2sd modele 1910/1936) also worn by barrack wardens betwen 1912 to 1937....


i take that from a french article in "militaria magazine" (french) articles on ww1 cap badge. in this article they also speak about the 1st modele with the wreat...
if you want i can send you the scan of the 2 pages (1.6 mo each) ---

Many thanks. I wondered whether it was a second pattern badge prior to the GVIR badge.

Alan

...in addition to "Hate belt" we now also have the "Grave diggers belt" with the aforementioned belt festooned with various badges and buttons, allied and German.
Naturally, it follows that these badges were gleaned from those who dug graves.
Another bit of clap-trap from the folks who bring us, all to often, over-priced and phoney badges.
Dr B
:rolleyes:

Hate Belt
 

Having watched the progress of this belt on ebay going above the high starting price and still not reaching the reserve, I'd "Hate" to think what the seller thinks it's worth . . !
"Remember, any item is only as valuable as the price someone is prepared to pay for it"

There is some doubt as to whether Hugh King got the ID of the GVR with wreath right. He stated it was Mil Provost in Vol 1 of his book and this has been accepted ever since. There was a thread on the forum about this and one member had researched this and found that there was no record or photographs of it ever being worn by the MPSC. Its real regiment identity remains unknown but there are a number of options.

The badge would seem to date from the WW1 era judging by its appearance and type of collections that it appears in.

Alan

I have a distant memory of reading or being told that the GVR cypher with wreath cap badge was worn by Barrack Wardens who were retired soldiers employed to look after the military estate including married quarters. They were uniformed and also wore a BW shoulder title.

Has any member heard this theory?

Interesting. Is it possible that it is the other way around and that the type with Laurel wreath is MPSC at least before being replaced by the non-Luarel Wreath and the one without , whilst certainly used by MPSC was also used for Barrack Wardens ?

Reason I ask is that doing a few google searches, I have found a photo of the type with Laurel Wreath being worn by a very fierce looking Sergeant (as you'd expect in the MPSC) in what is definitely a "normal" military uniform.

I also came across some discussions around a photo with a guy in "uniform" but not the normal military type, an elderly looking chap in a much more "civilian" looking uniform. His overcoat has normal black plastic type buttons, no regimental cypher. He was identified in the discussion as Norfolk Yeomanry, but that seems doubtful to me.
By coincidence I came across another discussion in a Geneaology site which I think may have been about the same guy. The person posting said he thought his relative was Norfolk Yeomanry and had been identified by the cap badge in a photo, BUT his service dates/places apparently couldn't have tied in with the Norfolk Yeomanry. The interesting thing is that this chaps wife was known to have been a Barrack Warden ! Did married couples serve as Barrack Wardens ?

If anyone wants to take a look here is the site with the photo of the elderly guy.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index...sg1098736.html

One of the posters there did actually suggest Barrack Warden

With the wreath, it would certainly fit the the common design with the CMP....

Tom

Yes definately not yeomanry.

Perhaps then, the version with wreath was Military Prison Staff Corps from 1901-1906, then the type without wreath was Military Provost Staff Corps from 1906 onwards. Possible ?

Unlikely as sliders were not generally in use before 1903/6.

The other photo was posted on GMIC

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=43214

You have to be a member to see the photos there, so I'll take the liberty of adding it here. I'm a Moderator over there so I'm sure my fellow Mod who posted it won't mind in the interests of trying to establish the identity of this type of badge.

Now, to me, this looks like the type of tough Hombre who'd be in the Military Prison service rather than being a retired pensioner Warden type.