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-   -   Royal Warwickshire Regt, how late could it have been taken? (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84708)

High Wood 04-05-21 09:36 AM

Royal Warwickshire Regt, how late could it have been taken?
 
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This photographic post card was amongst a shoe box full of annotated photographs that I recently purchased. Having researched the names of the family members, I can narrow this image down to one of two people.

The first man was born in 1907 and died in 1931 age 24, if he enlisted at the age of 18, the earliest that the photograph could date from is 1925.

As this man was known to have been a civilian lorry driver involved in a fatal accident in 1930 and was dead by 1931, it cannot date from after 1931.

The second candidate was born in 1920 and, if he enlisted at the age of 18, the photograph cannot be earlier than 1938. As this was about the time that Battle Dress was being introduced, is it possible that a soldier could be issued a tunic of this pattern as late as 1938?

I have the second man's Army number, 5111448, which in relation to another Royal Warwickshire Regiment Army number. 5114466, issued in October 1939, is 3,018 enlistments earlier.

Your thoughts would be welcome.

Toby Purcell 04-05-21 09:42 AM

SD was still being issued as late as 1938 but principally to the service support and departmental corps, most infantry battalions on the home establishment had started receiving battle dress in 1937. Collar badges made universal from 1924 so on balance my bet would be on the first man.

High Wood 04-05-21 09:58 AM

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Many thanks for that. The photograph has the name Cyril, which is the name of the first man, on the back. However, he looks like an slightly older version of the second lad, which has the message, 'Vincent, missing in Burma' on the reverse.

I am probably hoping against hope that the photograph soldier photograph is wrongly captioned.

Here are the three photographs side by side,

49lassiepen 04-05-21 10:00 AM

Toby thanks for an informative post -glad to see you back/active ,always look forward to your sensible/informative posts
David

High Wood 04-05-21 11:40 AM

As 'Vincent' transferred to the 13th King's Regiment around 1942, it is possible that he was part of a draft from the 8th, Territorial, battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment that did so.

Would it be possible to say whether territorials were still being issued the earlier pattern tunics in 1937/38?

manchesters 04-05-21 11:46 AM

Something wrong here withe dates, ages, could you clarify please.

"The first man was born in 1907 and died in 1931 age 34, if he enlisted at the age of 18, the earliest that the photograph could date from is 1925.

As this man was known to have been a civilian lorry driver involved in a fatal accident in 1930 and was dead by 1931, it cannot date from after 1930 at the latest."

regards

grey_green_acorn 04-05-21 11:53 AM

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Here is my father in service dress with collar badges, shoulder titles and lanyard as a newly joined gunner in 66 Anti-Tank Regiment (King’s Own) Royal Artillery. Photo taken June 1939.

Tim

Hoot 04-05-21 02:25 PM

Going by the civvy clothing styles I would go for the second candidate. All three photos, in my opinion, appear to be of the same person.

MarkGD 04-05-21 02:53 PM

I agree with Hoot, all the same individual. Regards Mark

High Wood 04-05-21 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters (Post 548053)
Something wrong here withe dates, ages, could you clarify please.

"The first man was born in 1907 and died in 1931 age 34, if he enlisted at the age of 18, the earliest that the photograph could date from is 1925.

As this man was known to have been a civilian lorry driver involved in a fatal accident in 1930 and was dead by 1931, it cannot date from after 1930 at the latest."

regards

Apologies, it was a typo as I wasn't wearing my reading glasses, it should of course read 24.

If the note on the back of the photograph correctly identifies the subject, he is Cyril and was clearly in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. I cannot confirm that Cyril was in the Army as the Royal Warwickshire Regiment Attestation Books do not seem to have survived.

The only concrete information that I have been able to find regarding Cyril's career is that he was employed as a lorry driver by a Birmingham firm and that he caused the death of another lorry driver in 1930 due to driving under the influence. He stood trial, was found guilty and heavily fined and was sacked from his job. A year later he was dead, I do not yet know how, but possibly suicide. His wife had died in 1928, aged 24.

Vincent, the other man, definitely enlisted into the Royal Warwickshire Regiment before transferring to the 13th King's.

So, I have the names of two cousins who look pretty similar, one I have evidence that he served with the Royal Warwicks, the other I don't.

Toby Purcell 04-05-21 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Wood (Post 548029)
Many thanks for that. The photograph has the name Cyril, which is the name of the first man, on the back. However, he looks like an slightly older version of the second lad, which has the message, 'Vincent, missing in Burma' on the reverse.

I am probably hoping against hope that the photograph soldier photograph is wrongly captioned.

Here are the three photographs side by side,

I too believe that all three photos show the same individual. If Cyril is annotated on the back of the photo showing a Royal Warwickshire soldier then on a balance of probability I should think that is who it is.

High Wood 04-05-21 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn (Post 548060)
Here is my father in service dress with collar badges as a newly joined gunner in 66 Anti-Tank Regiment (King’s Own) Royal Artillery. Photo taken June 1939.

Tim

Thank you for posting the image of you father in uniform.

High Wood 04-05-21 05:06 PM

6 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell (Post 548114)
I too believe that all three photos show the same individual. If Cyril is annotated on the back of the photo showing a Royal Warwickshire soldier then on a balance of probability I should think that is who it is.

Thanks for that, it is important that I get this right as Vincent was killed in action as a Chindit on Operation Longcloth 1943 and I want to be sure that it is him in the uniform.

I have labelled the photographs and added a couple more that are also labelled "Cyril".

The photograph showing Cyril holding the baby with the young girl by his side was taken in 1927.

Cyril's son was also born in early 1927 and in the lorry photograph he looks about three years old maybe four at a pinch.

Postwarden 05-05-21 11:23 AM

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An article in The Formation Sign Journal of the Military Heraldry Society published in October 2020 sheds further light on this photo.

Between the wars the four Territorial battalions of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment continued to wear on their service dress the system of coloured shapes they had worn in the first World War and that shown in the original photo posted is probably the vertical dark blue rectangle worn by the Warwicks 8th Bn.

The 6th Bn wore a similar red vertical rectangle but in 1936 as part of the rebuilding of Britain's AA defences the 6th Bn was converted to 69th Anti-Aircraft Bn (Royal Warwickshire), Royal Artillery (its HQ in Birmingham) which adopted Artillery cap and collar badges - but retained the red rectangle on the arm as this picture proves.

The rectangles were worn until the introduction of battle dress which was not announced until March 1939, initial issues going first to the Regular Army from that summer. Many units went to France in 1939 wearing service dress which lingered on for quite some time.

Jon

High Wood 05-05-21 03:25 PM

Jon,

thank you for your sharing your knowledge of the intricacies of British Army uniform embellishments, it is appreciated. To be honest, I hadn't even noticed the rectangle until you pointed it out.

I am pleased because it confirms the 8th battalion, Royal Warwickshire connection that Vincent Onions had. As I am sure you know, a large draft of 8th Royal Warwickshire Regiment were sent to the 13th King's Regiment for the first Wingate Expedition.

It also confirms the Aston connection with the 8th Battalion being based at the Wilton Barracks in Aston.

The down side is that if the territorial battalions of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment continued to use the coloured shapes between the wars, it must mean that it was also in use in the late 1920s, so the first cousin would have also worn a blue rectangle if he had been in the 8th battalion before he died.

We know that the first cousin was a motor lorry driver by profession and could still have been a territorial soldier. I have thought about applying for his marriage certificate, but it has occurred to me that his profession will mention the lorry driving and not the soldiering.

I am very pleased that your new information does not rule out Vincent Alfred Onions from being the soldier in the photograph.

It would appear that the only thing that would rule Cyril George Grainger out, is if his name does not appear in the Attestation Books. I do not yet know if they still exist.

Best wishes,

Simon


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