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-   -   Unofficial commissions, factory mistakes and the outright fakes (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52768)

Alan O 07-07-14 04:56 AM

Unofficial commissions, copies and fakes
 
2 Attachment(s)
It's my intention to show the small number of incorrect a/a badges that I own. I bought them all for less than 6 (less the Hants) but certain dealers still flog them for a lot. lot more. I will show photos of fronts and backs and explain whether they are:

a. Factory error; others recorded here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...actory+hussars
b. Unofficial commission of a genuine badge design.
c. Out and out fake that was never made in a/a.
d. Made but never worn by the regiment.

If any one can post similar photos of the fake ones I am missing ( SWB, Suffolks for eg) then I will update the thread. I will pin this to the thread as a reference and as such will remove all other posts in due course but please comment during its assembly.

The authority for these badges is Chris' book. There are other publications but they are unreliable and one is down right wrong.

it's up to the individual collector whether to include these badges in their collection or not. I have a few that I have paid very little for but I would counsel against paying some exorbitant prices being asked online and at auction for a badge that was never worn. I have not included badges made for cadets (such as the Bucks Bn made solely for cadets) or the plethora of badges (such as the SAS) made for collectors by Gaunt Bham and others.

Copied from previous thread:

An unofficial commission of a parachute regt badge that was not authorised for production.

Alan O 04-04-16 03:42 PM

Royal Warwickshire
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Bought from 5 from Jeremy Tenniswood in 2005. he had a box of them.

Alan O 04-04-16 03:44 PM

Queen's Crown Highland Light Infantry
 
2 Attachment(s)
A badge that was not authorised for production.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Alan O 04-04-16 03:51 PM

Fife and Forfar Yeomanry
 
2 Attachment(s)
A badge that was not authorised for production in a/a.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

This one cost me $10.

Alan O 04-04-16 03:54 PM

Loyal Suffolk Hussars yeomanry
 
2 Attachment(s)
A badge that was not authorised for production.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Alan O 04-04-16 03:55 PM

Royal Ulster Rifles King's Crown
 
2 Attachment(s)
A badge that was not authorised for production.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Bought for 3 in Devizes in 2006.

Alan O 04-04-16 03:58 PM

Duke of Connaughts in gold a/a
 
2 Attachment(s)
A factory error of a badge that was authorised for production in silver. The slider shows sign of wear and has been bent for a beret.

This is the only one I have ever seen in gold a/a.

Firmin mark.

Die cast reverse.

Alan O 04-04-16 04:01 PM

9th Lancers
 
2 Attachment(s)
A badge that was not authorised for production.

No maker's mark. Believed to be Gaunt made private commission for John Gaylor.

Die cast reverse.

Bought in a job lot of other badges.

Alan O 04-04-16 04:42 PM

South Staffordshire - unmarked slider
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Bought from 5 from Jeremy Tenniswood in 2005. he had a box of them

Alan O 04-04-16 04:45 PM

Norfolk Yeomanry
 
2 Attachment(s)
An badge that was not authorised for production for the Norfolk Yeomanry.

It has been suggested that it was actually used by Royal parks staff and the like.

Firmin maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.

3748 Hussar 04-04-16 04:49 PM

3rd King's Own Hussars
 
2 Attachment(s)
A badge that was not authorised for production.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

These surfaced for the tertencenay parade 1985. It uses the QOH pattern horse.

Alan O 04-04-16 04:56 PM

Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regt
 
2 Attachment(s)
The Beds & Herts was not authorised for a/a.

Die struck fake with a Firmin slider.

Alan O 04-04-16 05:22 PM

Welch Regt
 
2 Attachment(s)
A copy of a badge that was authorised for production.

Die struck with blank slider.

Alan O 04-04-16 05:22 PM

East Yorkshire Regt
 
2 Attachment(s)
A fake badge that was not authorised for production.

Die struck with Timings slider.

Alan O 04-04-16 06:30 PM

AEA Wiltshire Regt
 
2 Attachment(s)
A copy of a badge that was authorised for production but has been reproduced with a Gaunt maker's mark and a die struck reverse.

The period Wiltshire AEA cypher badges were made with a riveted slider marked Grove MFG B'Ham. They had a cast back

Mike H 04-04-16 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 354372)
An badge that was not authorised for production for the Nortfolk Yeomanry.

It has been suggested that I actually used by Royal parks staff and the like.

Firmin maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.

The Norfolk Yeomanry badge is squatter and the crown far smaller with fatter letters

Alan O 04-04-16 07:06 PM

1 Attachment(s)
In brass like this one.

Mike H 04-04-16 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 354402)
In brass like this one.

Yes, in gold anodised. Not sure on the maker off the top of my head

William 05-04-16 08:54 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Although these images have been posted before, possibly you might also be interested to see this ...

engr9266 05-04-16 10:31 AM

All silver RLC
 
1 Attachment(s)
There is a R.L.C. ALL silver anodised badge produced in Hong Kong for use there until the correct badges were made available.

Mike H 05-04-16 01:30 PM

The Suffolks badges are from the same stable as the E.Yorks,Beds and Herts etc.

KLR 05-04-16 08:20 PM

I can add a couple of examples from the King's Regt - and corroborated from Chris's book or discussions with him.

It is well known that the WO (which became MoD in 1964) authorised the eventual production in the 1950s but most were produced much later. For example an AA version of the 1950 Pattern King's badge did not actually appear until after 1959. The CCN for that year indicates that it was not yet available. It was not, therefore, worn by the pre amalgamation regiment. There is a seeded scroll version of the AA but I have not yet found the date of its introduction. Chris has some evidence that the seedless scroll version appeared in about 1964 - this is the badge still used by the LUOTC.

I was once offered an all gold AA King's badge with the explanation of it being a 'bandsman's badge' !!! - absolute rubbish, it was merely a production mistake.

The other example was the Liverpool Scottish (Cameron type) AA badge for which Pattern Cards exist dated 1965. Though this was an official production the unit refused to wear it. They survived until disbandment in 1967 with old WM versions (some purportedly made in Pakistan) and the AA version was only ever afterwards worn by cadets.

fougasse1940 06-04-16 07:30 PM

2 Attachment(s)
South Staffordshire - unmarked slider
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 354370)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production.

No maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Bought from 5 from Jeremy Tenniswood in 2005. he had a box of them

This one, equally unofficial, has a different reverse die.

Rgds, Thomas.

Mike H 07-04-16 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fougasse1940 (Post 354704)
South Staffordshire - unmarked slider

This one, equally unofficial, has a different reverse die.

Rgds, Thomas.

There is a believed genuine badge to the South Staffs. Firmin London marked with an unseeded scroll.

bess55 07-04-16 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike H (Post 354850)
There is a believed genuine badge to the South Staffs. Firmin London marked with an unseeded scroll.

Mike,
I have a Firmin London marked S.Staffs A/A cap badge with a glued on shaped piece of brown Holland on the rear - quite correctly. The slider appears slightly over long and retains the gold anodising. Non seeded scroll and clear signs of wear on the front and neck of the slider.

I have 2 different die versions of this badge (which differ again from the above) with unmarked sliders. Both are seeded on the scroll. One has a very neatly made Holland oval backing glued on also.

Regards all

Bess

William 08-04-16 02:25 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike H (Post 354850)
There is a believed genuine badge to the South Staffs. Firmin London marked with an unseeded scroll.

Possibly this is the badge you refer to, Mike.

All the best

William

Mike H 08-04-16 08:51 AM

Thats the one William. Middlesex is falls into a similar category as this.

Jimbo66 24-04-16 09:33 AM

9th Lancers
 
Hi Alan,

I bought my 9th Lancers badge from John Gaylor, who was then Secretary of the Military Historical Society. At the time John was the only 'dealer' who could obtain modern badges so it seems logical that he had access to someone at Gaunt's or Firmin's who was prepared to make these badges. I think we have to accept that they are not 'genuine' issued badges but for all intents and purposes are an example.

Regards,

Jim

hagwalther 25-04-16 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo66 (Post 357291)
Hi Alan,

I bought my 9th Lancers badge from John Gaylor, who was then Secretary of the Military Historical Society. At the time John was the only 'dealer' who could obtain modern badges so it seems logical that he had access to someone at Gaunt's or Firmin's who was prepared to make these badges. I think we have to accept that they are not 'genuine' issued badges but for all intents and purposes are an example.

Regards,

Jim

Hi Guys,

I agree with everything stated above apart from the Firmin bit.

Gaunt was the manufacturer of his badges - check out the sliders used.

I wonder what else he was 'involved in'...

Regards

Chris

didithevan 20-05-16 07:53 PM

Erm, I have one of these HLI badges and to throw a spanner in the works. I got it off of the shelf in shed D2 at COD Bicester in 1983 during a stock reconciliation task. They were obsolescent and marked for disposal so I had one (I was a kid at the time and knew little about badges or I would have half inched the other 7 or so on the shelf!). So I don't know know about unauthorised, but having a part number, being held in the Army depot and me getting it from there sort of makes it official to me. I did also let Chris know about this when I contacted him about another supposed fake - the Gordons with BY DAND instead of BYDAND, again I got mine off the shelf in the depot.

ARTY 29-08-16 07:17 PM

Thanks Alan all very informative to a novice on fakes like myself. What does die strike reverse mean.
arty

Alan O 29-08-16 07:23 PM

Die cast = solid back with no detail

Die struck = mirror image of front detail.

hagwalther 29-08-16 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 373407)
Die cast = solid back with no detail

Die struck = mirror image of front detail.

Hi Alan,

Die Cast - injection molding if two dies used or open cast if no reverse die.

Die Struck - Two dies (obverse and reverse) brought together under pressure of which the rear my be blank, a mirror image or of rough detail.

See Fake and Repros chapter of my book.

Regards,

Chris

irishhorse 30-08-16 05:45 PM

QRIH A/A Cap Badge With Silver Crown.
 
2 Attachment(s)
Not sure if this is of interest. A QRIH A/A cap badge with silver crown not the usual gold. By J.R. GAUNT B'HAM.

KLR 30-08-16 06:17 PM

Straying away from AA - I have some bronze OSDs which look'die struck' . Isthis possible within thin metal and cheaply produced ??
Also some whichhave a 'plain' reverse and some with only a minor indentation - eg a "depression" in the area of the horse's back.

hagwalther 30-08-16 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLR (Post 373511)
Straying away from AA - I have some bronze OSDs which look'die struck' . Isthis possible within thin metal and cheaply produced ??
Also some whichhave a 'plain' reverse and some with only a minor indentation - eg a "depression" in the area of the horse's back.

Hi Julian,

Related to the thickness of the metal used perhaps...?

Regards,

Chris

John Mulcahy 30-08-16 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishhorse (Post 373507)
Not sure if this is of interest. A QRIH A/A cap badge with silver crown not the usual gold. By J.R. GAUNT B'HAM.

That is interesting, can we assume an incomplete production?

John

hagwalther 30-08-16 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy (Post 373546)
That is interesting, can we assume an incomplete production?

John

Hi John,

Probably incorrectly made.

Back of badge is gold so this was the last colour used in colouring this badge.

As crown is also silver it seems that it was accidently 'stopped off' post silver dye application together with badge's harp and scroll.

Badge then dyed gold and later stop off paint removed reveling previously dyed silver harp, scroll and crown.

Badge would then be boiled in distilled water to seal aluminium pores and prevent ingress of dirt into the aluminium.

Which is why they 'stay bright' ...

Regards,

Chris

John Mulcahy 31-08-16 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagwalther (Post 373547)
Hi John,

Probably incorrectly made.

Back of badge is gold so this was the last colour used in colouring this badge.

As crown is also silver it seems that it was accidently 'stopped off' post silver dye application together with badge's harp and scroll.

Badge then dyed gold and later stop off paint removed reveling previously dyed silver harp, scroll and crown.

Badge would then be boiled in distilled water to seal aluminium pores and prevent ingress of dirt into the aluminium.

Which is why they 'stay bright' ...

Regards,

Chris

thanks Chris, as I thought.

John

engr9266 31-08-16 07:04 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 354372)
An badge that was not authorised for production for the Nortfolk Yeomanry.

It has been suggested that it was actually used by Royal parks staff and the like.

Firmin maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.

I have the following badges which are for GOVENMENT SERVICE/ROYAL HOUSEHOLD. Two in gold A/A and one in silver A/A (I have seen the silver one being worn by the Queens driver)
Maker in order-FIRMIN LONDON, No maker, FIRMIN.
Badge are the same size, Middle one shows smaller.


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