British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/index.php)
-   Anodised Aluminium Badges (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82)
-   -   Authorised badges but not worn. (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52862)

Alan O 04-04-16 04:03 PM

Authorised badges but not worn.
 
2 Attachment(s)
A badge that was authorised for production.

Firmin maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.

The Regtl museum is adamant that this made but never worn.

Alan O 04-04-16 04:05 PM

Hants and Glosters regt
 
2 Attachment(s)
Designed for an amalgamation that never happened.

Alan O 04-04-16 04:32 PM

Berkshire Territorials
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production but possibly never worn by the TAVR. The proposed design was to be worn on a red plastic backing.

The gold a/a cast version is correct for the Berkshire Yeomanry.

Firmin maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Bought online for 7.

Alan O 04-04-16 04:35 PM

Oxfordshire Territorials
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production but never worn by the TAVR. There is a thread on the forum citing that this badge is based upon a small number of badges locally manufactured by sticking 2 badge parts together for the small cadre left in 1968.

JR Gaunt London Ltd maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Bought online for 5.

Alan O 04-04-16 04:59 PM

Hampshire & IOW Territorials
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production but never worn by the TAVR.

JR Gaunt London Ltd maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.

Alan O 04-04-16 05:00 PM

Wiltshire Territorials
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production but never worn by the TAVR. Wiltshire territorials wore Wiltshire yeomanry collar badges and the a/a P/P cypher Wiltshire regimental cap badge.

JR Gaunt London Ltd maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Alan O 04-04-16 05:01 PM

London Yeomanry & Territorials
 
2 Attachment(s)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production but never worn by the TAVR.

No maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.

bess55 06-04-16 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 354376)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production but never worn by the TAVR.

JR Gaunt London Ltd maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.

Mike,
are you saying that this particular badge made by Gaunt is unofficial or the badge in itself in anodised aluminium?

This badge can be found in at least 3 different makers that I know of in A/A and has bespoke anodised aluminium collar badges for E Coy - the scarce dog gauge collar badge.

6th edition of Edwards (printed 1974) describes this badge and its construction as anodised gold and silver (actually spelling it 'anodized').

All of this would suggest (if we assume accuracy on the part of Major Edwards) that this badge would appear to have been contemporary at least in 1974.

Alan O 06-04-16 06:28 PM

If you mean the Wilts Territorials:

Authorised for production and made.

Worn by the units concerned - not likely but would love to find a photo in use. Edwards' book is flawed in some areas and I am not confident that what he recorded is 100% right

Personally I don't believe the London Ltd mark is contemporary either.

Chris' book records the details ADC decision of 1968 to approve the design and the 1981 regtl magazine details stating that it was not issued but sold off to collectors.

bess55 06-04-16 06:49 PM

Hi Mike,
I was referring to the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Territorials. (sorry the photo didn't reproduce in the post).

Edwards discusses this unit over 5 pages in detail. There will no doubt be errors in his books - there are in most reference books - but this would be quite a significant one.

My observations only and am by no means an expert on this particular unit.

Thanks Mike

Kind regards to all

Bess

Alan O 06-04-16 06:58 PM

Bess

Again I can only refer to Chris' research that records that whilst the design was approved, it was not officially produced. Chris may be able to elaborate more.

The local TA Bn for Hants and the IOW from 1971 was 2 Wessex who wore the Wessex bde badge until 1992 when they rebadged to PWRR.

Alan

bess55 06-04-16 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 354692)
Bess

Again I can only refer to Chris' research that records that whilst the design was approved, it was not officially produced. Chris may be able to elaborate more.

The local TA Bn for Hants and the IOW from 1971 was 2 Wessex who wore the Wessex bde badge until 1992 when they rebadged to PWRR.

Alan

As I understand it, A Coy, 2 Wessex was formed from the Hampshire & Isle of Wight Territorials. This badge and this amalgamation is also described in KK where the badge can be found ref 2387 in the 2nd Volume first published in 1979.

There is clearly something unusual here. As you say 1 & 2 Wessex began 1971, so where that leaves things I'm not sure. So the badge if it were worn would have to have been pre 1971 one would assume then?

In addition to the Gaunt made badge you show, there is also a Firmin London marked example and a blank slidered one too. They appear to come from differing dies and each have different sliders which would indicate three separate origins, which would be odd for a badge never issued perhaps.

Either way, its all healthy debate.

Best regards all

Bess

bess55 06-04-16 09:00 PM

Royal Wiltshire Territorials
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O (Post 354378)
An unofficial commission of a badge that was authorised for production but never worn by the TAVR. Wiltshire territorials wore Wiltshire yeomanry collar badges and the a/a P/P cypher Wiltshire regimental cap badge.

JR Gaunt London Ltd maker's mark.

Die struck reverse.

Royal Wiltshire Territorials were formed in 1961 from the Wiltshire Regt (TA) forming A Coy and Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry forming B Coy. This badge clearly being an amalgam of the two previous cap badges. No idea what the collar badge arrangement would have been.

This merger is also discussed in Edwards and even refers to the Wiltshire Regt remaining as a cadre after this formation (although what that means in real terms when cap badge wearing is the issue, I wouldn't know).

This cap badge is shown in K&K at 2395 as anodised aluminium.

Goff Lomley shows the R Wilts Territorials (with this cap badge) being amalgamated into 1 Wessex in 1971 as E Coy. After a 10 year period.

The badge can be found with varying makers too, including Gaunt and Firmin.

Again an odd one if not issued when research tends to show its use. So what did the R Wilts Territorials wear for 10 years? Did they wear their old cap badges then? Did the regimental magazine outline what they did wear if not the issue cap badge?

Regards all

Bess

hagwalther 07-04-16 04:29 AM

Hi Guys,

As my name is being quoted a bit in this thread so I'll step in here to make sure where everyone is in relation to my research into A/A cap badges.

1. I only based my research on official documentation. In all cases this doco is given as a reference at the foot of the chapter where it was written up. Therefore, what I wrote is verifiable.

Authors like Edwards, Kipling & King, Lumley never, as far as I can tell, state where they received their information from. As such we have no idea if what they wrote was accurate as there is no trail back to defining documentation.

In effect I only state that specific badges were officially authorised for issue. I have no idea, in may cases, if they were even issued let alone worn and I make this point very clear, in multiple places, in the text.

2. I did included anecdotal evindence in my book where I thought it important such as the early pattern ROAC cap badge. An example was found a few weeks ago in Australia and is now with Alan.

3. In a few cases only did I state that a specific badge was worn. The reason for this was that there is almost sod all official evidence that any specific A/A cap badge was actually worn. An example of an A/A cap badge being officially recorded as issued is that of the Highland Brigade.

re; Royal Wiltshire Territorials - for those of you who do not have my book. Here is some info from the chapter A Tangle of Territorials Page 171:

...the third document of note in relation to TA badges comes from a loose document titled Amalgamated Regiments which do not have a Regimental cap badge. This document is extremely important for collectors in that it states that the following anodised aluminium cap badges never got as far as being issued, although some were initially authorised for issue. Such deferment is also recorded in the at the 178th Meeting of the War Office Dress Committee held on 12th April 1967, where the Dorset Territorials, Hampshire and Isle of Wight Territorials, Oxfordshire Territorials, Royal Berkshire Territorials and the Royal Wiltshire Territorials are specifically noted. At the 185th Meeting of the War Office Dress Committee, held on 10th April 1968, it is recorded that all action that was related to the procurement of anodised aluminium cap badges for TAVR III units was halted, up to and including the approval of finished samples. It is unknown, however, if any contracts for the bulk manufacture of TAVR III cap badges that had previously been placed were also cancelled and the manufacturers indemnified...

This discussion continues through to the end of the chapter but my opinion is this.

Unless someone can come up with some other official doco then any A/A cap badges purportedly to be of the Royal Wiltshire Territorials are either:

1. One of the very rare initial samples.
2. An item from a initial manufacturing run that was later cancelled with the badges later thrown to the wind so to say.
3. An unofficial commission i.e. a dud.

I think it more probably that item 3. is the more accurate.

Regards,

Chris

Alan O 07-04-16 02:40 PM

Some information about the Wiltshire yeomanry:

Source: 'Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry 1907-67' by Brig JRI Platt published 1972.

- The RWY regt disbanded in 1967 and wore the RWY feathers cap badge up to the disbandment parade of that year.

- A Sqn went into the Royal Yeomanry Regt and continued to wear the Wilts yeo badge. This cap badge is shown being worn in the book in a group photo RWY Sqn members in 1970 with a named unit sign for RWY Sqn of Royal Yeomanry Regt.

- B Sqn went into Royal Wiltshire Territorials which was formed on 1 Apr 1967. They remained as a formed body of RWY.

- The Wilts Territorials as an organisation lasted until around Apr 1968 when it in turn disbanded. - note this was the reason that, whilst the badge has been approved, it was not needed due to the decision to disband.

There was a subsequent cadre of only 8 personnel which retained the titles and traditions of the pre 67 units.


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:37 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.