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School of Musketry Senior NCO

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    School of Musketry Senior NCO

    A great portrait of what I believe to be a Quartermaster Sgt Instructor of the School. The medal looks like the early Long Service and Good Conduct.

    Thoughts appreciated.

    Jon
    Attached Files

    #2
    Jon,

    Agreed on all points.
    Interestingly he will be wearing another set of KC over crossed rifles on each shoulder strap. Seen it in several other School of Musketry NCO photos, so 6 KC over crossed rifles in total!!, and could of course have more if he had any prize badges on the lower left arm.

    regards
    Simon Butterworth

    Manchester Regiment Collector
    Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
    British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges

    Comment


      #3
      I have just seen this on the Cheshire Regiment Museum site, quite interesting.
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        George,

        Just goes to show anything is possible with badges and dates and rules dont mean too much. Superb.

        regards
        Simon Butterworth

        Manchester Regiment Collector
        Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
        British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges

        Comment


          #5
          Very interesting.
          Is the WW II identification as QMSI because that is his known appointment?

          I ask because when, in 1938, the new rank of WO III was authorised, all existing WO II, whatever their appointment, had to change to the 1919 RQMS crown/wreath Until the final abandonment of WOIII [1947 from memory] the RQMS was indistinguishable from a CSM [as indeed he had been from May 1915 to September 1918]

          So I believe that the man in the photo might be a CSM Instructor or any other appointment open to a WO II ....... and this of course includes RQMS Instructor if such an appointment existed in the unit.

          I would add that I have no detailed knowledge of School of Musketry or Small Arms School infrastructure.

          Standing by to be educated.

          Comment


            #6
            Does anyone have a closeup photo of the collar badges worn by the QMS?
            Never seen them. I have a photo in my files somewhere of the crossed rifles and crown hat badge worn in Australia by S of M instructors.

            Comment


              #7
              I think it is a really superb photograph, the golden age, before the world went mad, excellent.


              Originally posted by Postwarden View Post
              A great portrait of what I believe to be a Quartermaster Sgt Instructor of the School. The medal looks like the early Long Service and Good Conduct.

              Thoughts appreciated.

              Jon

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by grumpy View Post
                Very interesting.
                Is the WW II identification as QMSI because that is his known appointment?

                I ask because when, in 1938, the new rank of WO III was authorised, all existing WO II, whatever their appointment, had to change to the 1919 RQMS crown/wreath Until the final abandonment of WOIII [1947 from memory] the RQMS was indistinguishable from a CSM [as indeed he had been from May 1915 to September 1918]

                So I believe that the man in the photo might be a CSM Instructor or any other appointment open to a WO II ....... and this of course includes RQMS Instructor if such an appointment existed in the unit.

                I would add that I have no detailed knowledge of School of Musketry or Small Arms School infrastructure.

                Standing by to be educated.
                You are correct, Grumpy, that in WW2 the SASC appointment shown was CSMI, and for the precise reason that you have outlined. It was not until after WW2, once the WO3’s had all been phased out that the appointment reverted to QMSI.

                Very interesting to see the MGC badges in use in that manner. The fact that they are above his badge of appointment implies their use as a skill at arms badge. I’m unsure when the order was given to cease wearing crossed rifles below the appointment badge, and at what point the practice was resurrected.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by kingsley View Post
                  Does anyone have a closeup photo of the collar badges worn by the QMS?
                  Never seen them. I have a photo in my files somewhere of the crossed rifles and crown hat badge worn in Australia by S of M instructors.
                  The enclosed group image shows all the patterns of collar badge used by the SofM. The pattern seen in the photo is at bottom right and was introduced around 1907-08. In the period prior the King’s crown was worn for a short time, when the corps was ordered to wear ‘Garrison Staff’ insignia, including the Royal cypher as cap badge, during King Edward VII’s reign, a practice that was highly unpopular. Before that the QV crown over crossed rifles with slings was worn.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Toby Purcell; 14-06-19, 11:47 AM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks for the collar badge images. I have never seen one of these and did not know they existed.
                    A few years ago there was an unusual crossed rifles badge on Ebay, presumably the large size.The rifles were undoubtedly Sniders, which put them well into the mid Victorian period. There may have been another with crossed Martinis as well but I did not keep copies in my files.
                    I have quite a few skill at arms badges but all cloth of various patterns, and thought the metal ones must have been for an instructor not for marksmanship?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by kingsley View Post
                      Thanks for the collar badge images. I have never seen one of these and did not know they existed.
                      A few years ago there was an unusual crossed rifles badge on Ebay, presumably the large size.The rifles were undoubtedly Sniders, which put them well into the mid Victorian period. There may have been another with crossed Martinis as well but I did not keep copies in my files.
                      I have quite a few skill at arms badges but all cloth of various patterns, and thought the metal ones must have been for an instructor not for marksmanship?
                      Metal badges replaced cloth ones in 1907, because the cost of wool soared whereas gilding metal (an alloy) was cheap. These were then used for SofM working dress, with bullion wire for full dress arm badges. The crossed rifles marking SofM appointments were worn below crowns but above stripes. The positioning of the MGC badge on the SASC CSMI shows it is a SAA badge rather than a corps badge, an important distinction.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        So this would refer solely to the Skill at Arms badges worn upon the sleeve?


                        Originally posted by Toby Purcell View Post
                        Metal badges replaced cloth ones in 1907, because the cost of wool soared whereas gilding metal (an alloy) was cheap. These were then used for SofM working dress, with bullion wire for full dress arm badges. The crossed rifles marking SofM appointments were worn below crowns but above stripes. The positioning of the MGC badge on the SASC CSMI shows it is a SAA badge rather than a corps badge, an important distinction.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The battle dress shown from the Cheshire Regiment Museum is interesting as it sheds light on a small mystery I noted in my book Badges on Battle Dress.

                          In November 1955 the War Office Dress Committee authorised QMSIs (WOII), SSIs and Sergeant Instructors of the Small Arms School Corps to wear metal rank badges on battle dress - a crown in wreath for the QMSI, a small crown above the chevrons for the SSI - both worn with crossed brass rifles. As was often the case this was probably official authorisation for an existing practice.

                          The same meeting authorised the Corps to continue wearing the obsolete ‘Badges, Arm, Machine Gun, Crossed, Gunmetal’ until stocks were exhausted. No official record of this metal badge, presumably worn by the SASC’s MG instructors, has been found and is not recorded in Edwards and Langley. The BD shown has a crown above the crossed MGs but a photo I was alerted to which was reproduced in the July 2012 edition of Man at Arms; The Journal of the SASC shows WO2 (QMSI) Peter Clift, SASC serving with the MMG Division, School of Infantry Support Weapons Wing in 1958, wearing crossed brass machine guns under his brass rank badge.

                          Jon

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Frank Kelley View Post
                            So this would refer solely to the Skill at Arms badges worn upon the sleeve?
                            Yes. The last sentence above refers to the SASC CSMI. The preceding sentences to the SofM QMS at the beginning of the thread.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Postwarden View Post
                              The battle dress shown from the Cheshire Regiment Museum is interesting as it sheds light on a small mystery I noted in my book Badges on Battle Dress.

                              In November 1955 the War Office Dress Committee authorised QMSIs (WOII), SSIs and Sergeant Instructors of the Small Arms School Corps to wear metal rank badges on battle dress - a crown in wreath for the QMSI, a small crown above the chevrons for the SSI - both worn with crossed brass rifles. As was often the case this was probably official authorisation for an existing practice.

                              The same meeting authorised the Corps to continue wearing the obsolete ‘Badges, Arm, Machine Gun, Crossed, Gunmetal’ until stocks were exhausted. No official record of this metal badge, presumably worn by the SASC’s MG instructors, has been found and is not recorded in Edwards and Langley. The BD shown has a crown above the crossed MGs but a photo I was alerted to which was reproduced in the July 2012 edition of Man at Arms; The Journal of the SASC shows WO2 (QMSI) Peter Clift, SASC serving with the MMG Division, School of Infantry Support Weapons Wing in 1958, wearing crossed brass machine guns under his brass rank badge.

                              Jon
                              That is very interesting, Jon, and the knowledge of it is probably lost at what passes for the SASC Museum at Warminster. All that you have reported makes sense, as there was for many years a sense of independence among the instructors based at Netheravon’s medium machine gun Division at the Support Weapons Wing (there were also ‘medium mortar’ and ‘infantry anti-tank’ divisions).

                              The reason was partly geographical because the Small Arms Wing was at that time still far away at Hythe, in Kent, but mainly historical, in that before 1926 the last vestiges of the MGC, the independent Machine Gun School (formerly at Seaford), still existed at Netheravon (and still wore MG insignia) some 4-years after the MGC itself had been disbanded. It was in that year that the two schools merged to form the Small Arms School Corps, but not until 3-years later, in 1929 that a new cap badge was accepted that merged the emblems of the two schools, crossed rifles and tripod mounted MMG. At the same time the schools colours, red and blue for Netheravon and green and yellow for Hythe, were also merged to become the colours of the SASC.

                              The geographical separation remained however, and it was not until Hythe closed and the Small Arms Wing moved to Warminster that concerted efforts were made to bring the staff of the two wings more closely together in a sense of cross-fertilisation, a process that most felt was never 100% successful.

                              Whilst the MMG Division was at Netheravon, the instructors of the Small Arms School Corps who specialised in machine gun and mortar instruction, as opposed to the rifle and light machine gun that was taught at Hythe, were permitted to wear crossed machine guns as part of their rank insignia. This was instead of the crossed rifles worn by Hythe instructors.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Toby Purcell; 16-06-19, 10:17 AM.

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